Conditional Security

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Servent, May 9, 2006.

  1. Servent

    Servent
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2003
    Messages:
    797
    Likes Received:
    0
    In the OSAS thread I asked it not be turned into a debate, Now I would like to here from the other side,go for it.
     
  2. Nicholas25

    Nicholas25
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2006
    Messages:
    407
    Likes Received:
    0
    I believe we have a free will but I understand that Heaven is going to be full of people who believed in eternal security and conditional security. We can also say that Heaven is going to be full of Christians from many denominations. Thanks.
     
  3. Dustin

    Dustin
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2006
    Messages:
    696
    Likes Received:
    0
    you should post this in the other denominations forum, the SDA's would eat it up!
     
  4. Pipedude

    Pipedude
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    1,070
    Likes Received:
    0
    No matter what a passage of Scripture says, it can be twisted to say the opposite when our theology calls for it.

    For nearly 500 years there have been brilliant and spiritual theologians who have believed in OSAS. The die is cast, there's no turning back, and debating the issue is like trying to stop a lawnmower blade with your hand. It won't work, and you'll be sorry you tried.
     
  5. Servent

    Servent
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2003
    Messages:
    797
    Likes Received:
    0
    You sound like a very wise man. [​IMG]
     
  6. genesis12

    genesis12
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    799
    Likes Received:
    1
    "Conditional Security" is an oxymoron when examined through the lens of scripture. One has to rip scripture completly out of context in order to arrive at the conclusion that "conditional" security is true. It is a denial of the all-sufficient, sustaining grace of Christ, the latter a given throughout scripture.
     
  7. Pipedude

    Pipedude
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    1,070
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, I'm glad we got that settled. :rolleyes:
     
  8. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2003
    Messages:
    2,508
    Likes Received:
    3
    Not exactly. I don't believe that significant questions of theology can be resolved by saying "we've always believed it that way and therefore it must be true." Doesn't scripture enter into this discussion?
     
  9. Pipedude

    Pipedude
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    1,070
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nope.

    In this discussion, it's Christ and Antichrist in their final conflict. Verses may be flung like fresh snow in a school playground. Logic, illogic, ungrammatical gibberish, all intermarry without even procuring a license. The resulting melee outstrips anything I've seen in a barroom brawl.

    Don't you see? It doesn't MATTER what the verse says. What matters is what it MEANS, and that verse means what my theology says it HAS to mean. Otherwise Satan and all the demons of hell will sweep true Christianity from the face of the earth!

    Okay, I can feel it in my keyboard: you can't tell if I'm serious or just wired up on meth, so I'll demonstrate it so you can see for yourself....

    Everybody ready?

    Col 1: 21-23 says that through death he has reconciled you who were enemies, to present you holy and unblameable and unreprovable in his sight if you continue in the faith and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel.

    Now, without using predestination, reconcile that with OSAS.

    (Gotta go to work, be back tonight.)
     
  10. Shiloh

    Shiloh
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 2, 2002
    Messages:
    937
    Likes Received:
    0
    I believe in "Conditional" Security. Salvation is conditioned on Christ not us. It's not ours it's His, Psa.51:12.
     
  11. genesis12

    genesis12
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    799
    Likes Received:
    1
    The conditional security we are discussing argues that as long as one meets certain criteria one is saved. The opposite of that is OSAS. In Colossians 1:23-24 the Greek and the Hebrew "If" is actually "Since". It is used in this context: "If you (and you will) continue in the faith." A literal translation follows:

    "Col 1:22-23 ... in the body of His flesh through His death, to present all of you holy and unblemished (without fault) and free from reproach (finger pointing) before Him, since indeed all of you are continuing in the faith, having been firmly established and steadfast, and are not being shifted away from the hope (the calm, confident expectation) of the Gospel which all of you heard, the one having been preached in all the creation under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a servant."

    It is only when the scripture reference is ripped out of context that it can be made to support the idea that salvation is conditional upon the behavior of the believer. In context, OSAS is established in Col 1:23. [​IMG]
     
  12. Pipedude

    Pipedude
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    1,070
    Likes Received:
    0
    You seem to know quite a bit about that Hebrew "if." You wouldn't happen to be a Hebrew teacher, would you?

    Could you point me to any sources where Paul's use of Hebrew in Colossians is discussed in more detail?
     
  13. drfuss

    drfuss
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    1,692
    Likes Received:
    0
    genesis12 writes:
    "It is only when the scripture reference is ripped out of context that it can be made to support the idea that salvation is conditional upon the behavior of the believer. In context, OSAS is established in Col 1:23."

    IMHO, conditional security has nothing to do with the behavior of the believer. Conditional security is conditional on the believer continuing to trust in Christ as their savior. Conditional security does not involve losing ones salvation. A person can make a conscious decision to stop trusting Christ as savior, and thereby give back his salvation.
     
  14. genesis12

    genesis12
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    799
    Likes Received:
    1
    Methinks the smoke from pipedude's pipe is getting in your eyes, drfuss. Be careful! He may pull out the mirrors! [​IMG]
     
  15. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2003
    Messages:
    2,508
    Likes Received:
    3
    I ignore any argument that says that scripture is irrelevant.
     
  16. genesis12

    genesis12
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    799
    Likes Received:
    1
    MY theology? Maybe I misunderstand. However, if it is YOUR theology (or mine), then spiritual discernment has just flown out the proverbial window.......

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Pipedude

    Pipedude
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    1,070
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'd really appreciate it if you'd share your sources regarding Paul's use of Hebrew in Colossians.

    Surely you didn't state the meaning of the Hebrew on the basis of your theology, did you? You'd never do that, would you?

    Instead, you read the Hebrew word "since" yourself, didn't you, and made your own judgment about the interpretation of a first class conditional sentence in the Hebrew original of Colossians, right?

    Or did you just get the meaning of the Hebrew by spiritual discernment?
     
  18. genesis12

    genesis12
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    799
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ah, the trap is laid at the door! OK, I'll stick my foot in, pipedude. What's wrong with Paul's Hebrew in 1:23? Get ready, folks! The trap springeth!

    In the meantime, permit me to observe: All scripture is spiritually discerned. It is impossible to apprehend, comprehend, or understand it otherwise. "Otherwise" is intellectual tomfoolery.

    The “if” clause in Colossians obviously doesn't refer to OSAS. It refers to the status of the fellowship of the believer with God. Throughout the book of Colossians the apostle Paul emphasizes the need for a total commitment to Christ. The Christian is encouraged to remain utterly committed to Jesus Christ as Lord (Colossians 1:2 tells us who Paul is talking to. See as well Colossians 1:4,8; 12; 21; 3:12). In Colossians, they aren't being warned about falling from grace. They are being told not to be drawn back into the vain twaddle of Judaism and other meanderings. Since they are in the process of sanctification, they should not stray from the Truth of their calm, confident assurance of His love in this life and in the eternal life awaiting them. In fact, their eternal life has already begun, since they are sealed by the Holy Spirit until that day (Ephesians 4:30). It is Christ in them who is the hope of glory (Colossians 1:26-27; Χριστος εν) --- why dabble in empty philosophy? Why muddy the waters of your commitment to Christ? Why even for one second explore Mormonism or JWs or Buddha or Nostradamus or Confucius or the cults and false messiahs of this day or that day (see Galatians 1:8; 2 Peter 2:1)? You have the Truth (Ephesians 1:5)! Why walk with your head bowed low, puzzled, searching, always seeking, after having already found? Keep looking up! Your redemption draws nigh! Keep your eyes fixed on your purpose: to glorify Him. Remember your obligations here on earth (Colossians 3:18-4:1).

    Bottom line: We are responsible for maintaining our witness and His doctrine. 2 Timothy 1:14; Colossians 1:23; Proverbs 22:5. We are not to chase after the world's wisdom. Colossians 2:8-9; James 3:15; 1 Corinthians 1:17-27; 2:6,8,14; 2 Corinthians 1:12. We are to persevere. Hebrews 10:23,36; Hebrews 12:1,12-13; 1 John 2:24; 1 Corinthians 13:7; Romans 5:3-4; James 1:3-4,12; James 5:11; 2 Peter 1. Once saved, God does not, will not take away eternal security, nor can one abandon his or her eternal salvation. It is a scriptural given . One can disrupt fellowship, one can lose sight of the rewards (Colossians 2:18), but one can never lose eternity before or in God's eternal kingdom.

    Endless debate in these forums is akin to what the Colossians were warned about: instead of following their high calling in Christ Jesus, posters spend endless hours in forum gossip, laying traps, searching out contradictions.... a nightmare of "talking flesh," heresy, even blasphemy on rare occasions.

    One of the most joyful experiences is to purchase a study Bible, read the intro to a particular book, read all its footnotes, and check the cross-references, commentaries, and a good Bible dictionary. Do that with the Book of John. You'll graduate with a biblist Ph.D after six weeks or so, if you devote at least 3 hours daily!* In fact, do that with all of Colossians. Examine the Greek language, then the Hebrew counterpart, as well.

    Study the scriptures instead of endless debate in these forums.

    John 6:37-40
    John 10:27-30
    Hebrews 7:25
    Ephesians 1:13-14
    1 Peter 1:3-5
    Jude 1:24-25
    2 Timothy 1:12
    Colossians 1:9-11

    then there are a couple of others............

    Psa_92:13, Psa_92:14, Psa_125:5; Eze_18:26; Hos_6:3, Hos_6:4; Zep_1:6; Mat_24:13; Luk_8:13-15, Luk_22:32; Joh_8:30-32, Joh_15:9, Joh_15:10; Act_11:23, Act_14:22; Rom_2:7; Gal_4:11, Gal_5:7, Gal_6:9; 1Th_3:5; Heb_3:6, Heb_3:14, Heb_4:14, Heb_10:38; 1Pe_1:5; 2Pe_2:18-22; 1Jo_2:27; Rev_2:10

    *but IGNORE completely the gender-neutral translations and paraphrases in your study of God's Word!

    ;)
     
  19. Pipedude

    Pipedude
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    1,070
    Likes Received:
    0
    *Sigh*

    Genesis12, there is no Hebrew in Paul's letter to the Colossians. Therefore, when you wrote
    you were stating an absurdity.

    "The Greek and Hebrew 'if'." Saints preserve us! [​IMG]

    Now, if you know no more than to refer to "the Greek and Hebrew 'if'," it is obvious to nearly every reader of these posts that you did not interpret the first class conditional sentence yourself, but you found a source whose theology agreed with yours and you parroted it.

    That's what I originally alleged that folks do when they debate OSAS. That's why I won't debate it. (Not around here, at least.)

    You did it further in your last post. You showed how the book of Colossians generally is talking about something other than what 1:23 says. And you assert that OSAS is "a scriptural given." Therefore, when a verse obviously says something else, you interpret it according to scriptural givens, i.e., "your theology."

    That's what I do. That's what you do. That's what we all do when a verse gives us problems. We pick up our crowd's commentaries and we smack the verse silly until it agrees with "the rest of Scripture," which is Greek for "our theology."

    Still doubt it? Think for a minute about 2 Tim 2:12, "if we deny him, he also will deny us." Doesn't that mean "if we deny him, he will not deny us"--yea, even he cannot deny us? By what wondrous process does a verse come to mean the opposite of what it says?

    Theology!

    (Which is Aramaic for "spiritual discernment.")
     
  20. genesis12

    genesis12
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    799
    Likes Received:
    1
    SNAP! The trap closed! And Oh!, how terrible the SNAP thereof!

    The reference was rather simple: read the scripture in English in a good translation (not gender neutral or a paraphrase), check the Greek, then compare it to the Hebrew equivalent. In fact, you can GOOGLE "hebrew new testament". [​IMG]

    There's that awesome "if" again! All scripture is spiritually discerned, pipedude. You can ascribe your own understanding ~~ the Holy Spirit doesn't. All scripture is prayerfully approached. No one who has been birthed by faith in Christ should lean to his / her own understanding! God forbid! Therefore, the exegesis is not my own. If it is yours, that's your problem.

    We have the "mind", the spiritual insight and understanding of Christ. If our eyes stay fixed on Him, no scripture is of private interpretation.

    It is clear, quite clear from the context that "if we deny Him" he cannot use us in ministry. One who denies Him is not fit for His service (or may not have been saved in the first place; there is no plan B.) Timothy must persuade those who work with him in the ministry to stay fixed upon the goal of presenting Jesus Christ and Him crucified accurately, 24/7/365. (Check the Greek, then re-translate it into Hebrew). ;)

    IF, on the other hand, there are those of Timothy's potential followers who, having been made aware of salvation by grace through faith, subsequently deny Him ( reject that Good News), they can't be used.

    Now read 2 Timothy 2:13. Wow!

    2 Timothy 2:4

    "They e ey, asked me how I knew.........."

    Have a nice day.

    [​IMG]
     

Share This Page

Loading...