Confessions of a Theistic Determinist

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by J.D., Oct 5, 2007.

  1. J.D.

    J.D.
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    I'm sure most of you have noticed over the years how many discussions on any variety of topics turns into C v A debates. I have to admit that my view of election/predestination effects almost every other issue I can think of. Theistic Determinism IS my world view.

    I find myself lately trimming my words so as not to spur a C v A debate. For example, the thread on the Lord's return "Is this being selfish" over in the general forum. I don't want to hijack the discussion into a C v A debate, but all I can think about is how the doctrine of God's Sovereignty has changed my outlook as it pertains to the second coming. Just as Piper talks about being "satisfied with Christ" being the ultimate expression of praise, I find myself completelly satisfied with the second coming because I know that not one single elect child of God will "miss out", and for myself, I know without any reservation that I will not "miss out" on anything that God has purposed for me. I get overwhelming comfort from knowing this.

    Know what I mean?
     
  2. npetreley

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    Yes. ........
     
  3. JustChristian

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    From a free will perspective, not one child of God will miss out on the eternal kingdom. What's the difference in perspective?
     
  4. christianyouth

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    1)Baptist Board - If you look at the topic here, we can see that SO MANY can be reduced down to a misunderstanding(and sometimes rejection) of God's sovreignty in salvation.

    2)Main Stream preachers - Just listen to the difference between Calvinist preachers and Free-will preachers, and you will see that their preaching is MUCH different. Contrast, say, MacArthur or Paul Washer with Adrian Rogers or Charles Stanley.

    Those two things have showed me the huge divide between the two.
     
  5. pinoybaptist

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    I think the difference is on how a child of God is a child of God.
    Is he a child of God because on the basis of his own free will he satisfied some requirements like repentance, turning to Christ, trusting Christ, obedience and so on ?

    Or is He a child of God because God wants him as His child in Christ, and so therefore he is able to meet God's requirements because of God's enabling of him.

    If it's the former, then one may perceive a lot will be left out.
    If it's the latter, then there can be no dropouts, as Romans 8:29-30 points out, because it is all from and of God. Every aspect of salvation was God's initiative.
     
  6. Amy.G

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    I like all 4 of those preachers. Could you explain the huge divide that is between the 2 types of preachers?
     
  7. Allan

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    There isn't any when it come to salvation, but there is regarding the mechanics of it's operation.

    They are all God fearing men who are used mightly of God no different one from the other to God.

    It is only the arguing for doctrinal dominance that divides them.
     
  8. christianyouth

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    Wow Amy, I'm really happy that you like Paul Washer, though i'm suprised that you can't see the difference between him and Stanley. Stanley has said, 'You can live like the devil and be saved'. He believes the doctrine of the carnal Christian, the idea that someone can be a Christian and yet live in continual carnality and rebellion.

    So how does Stanley and Rogers holding to this view effect their preaching?

    Stanley and Rogers gear most of their preaching towards a non-existent group of people, carnal Christians. So while Rogers may do a sermon on ,' how to overcome homosexuality' and he would preach to 'Christians' who are struggling with homosexuality, Washer would conclude that if you are a practicing homosexual you are not a Christian. Thus while Stanley is saying, "quit your sin, Jesus died for you and you will never be happy in your sin,' Paul Washer is saying, 'repent of your sin and throw yourself on God's mercy so that you may be saved."



    I would say that Stanley and Rogers do a terrible disservice to the kingdom of God. instead of following in the footsteps of Paul and admonishing the hearers to 'examine themselves to see if they are in the faith.', they give people the false assurance that they are Christians and loved by God.

    2 Cor 13, Mt 7, Gal 5, Eph 5:1-5,1 John



    MacArthur and Paul Washer preach Lordship salvation, a forsaking of sin and embracing Jesus and savior and Lord. Their preaching is much different. It is geared towards new creatures with new desires. So you won't hear sermons on , 'how to stop beating your wife' but rather on ' the doctrine of the Trinity.' That is, their preaching will not be geared towards this non-existent group of people, the carnal Christians.

    Hope this clarifies it. :)

    Your brother,
    - Andy
     
  9. Bob Alkire

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    I have done business with many calvinist that must have been carnal (as well as other Christians), didn't pay their bill and other things, so you are saying they aren't Christians. A saved believer can act so the world can't tell him from a lost person. Don't judge the person off the moment, we all are sinners, just saved sinners and lost sinners.
     
  10. webdog

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    Amen. Some people just don't like to admit Lot was declared both righteous and godly in Scripture.
     
  11. Bob Alkire

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    Amen,brother!
     
  12. tjfkbrawny

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    That is definitely true. ANd that is what I must rely on, not my estimation.
     
  13. JustChristian

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    But if the former approach is correct Biblically, a lot of those counting on the second approach will be left out.
     
  14. JustChristian

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    Would you get overwhelming comfort if you knew that God has purposed for you to spend eternity in everlasting torment separated from Him and there's nothing you can do about it, no Savior for you?
     
  15. christianyouth

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    Webdog, you are appealing to an OT narrative passage to prove the doctrine of 'carnal christians.' I posted NT epistles, where it is specifically stated that Christians are new creatures who behave differently from the world. I know I won't change your mind on this issue, but for the sake of the people who are 'amening' your point, I will post some verses that deal with this issue.

    Gal 5:
    9Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: (AJ)immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, (AK)sorcery, enmities, (AL)strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, (AM)disputes, dissensions, (AN)factions,
    21envying, (AO)drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not (AP)inherit the kingdom of God.

    Eph 5:
    1(A)Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; 2and (B)walk in love, just as Christ also (C)loved [a]you and (D)gave Himself up for us, an (E)offering and a sacrifice to God as a (F)fragrant aroma.
    3But (G)immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints;
    4and there must be no (H)filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which (I)are not fitting, but rather (J)giving of thanks.
    5For this you know with certainty, that (K)no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom (L)of Christ and God.
    6(M)Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things (N)the wrath of God comes upon (O)the sons of disobedience.



    MT 7
    15"Beware of the (L)false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are (M)ravenous wolves. 16"You will (N)know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
    17"So (O)every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
    18"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
    19"(P)Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
    20"So then, you will know them (Q)by their fruits.
    21"(R)Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
    22"(S)Many will say to Me on (T)that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
    23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; (U)DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'


    Those are just small excerpts, this concept is found other places. In 1 Cor it talks about us being new creatures, in 1 John it has some specific tests for saving faith, in James he talks about the faith that does not produce works, it really is found all over. That is why it sounds pretty sad when people insist on saying , 'look at Peter(prior to pentecost), look at Lot, Look at David!' and use that to justify their doctrine of carnal Christian.

    Jesus cannot be your savior while Satan is your Lord.


    Also, remember the difference between the Old and New covenants. Taking historical narratives, like David and saying, 'See, Christians can live in adultery' doesn't work. In the strictest sense, David was not really a 'Christian.' in fact, the Bible implies that OT believers could 'loose' the Holy Spirit, when David says, "cast me not away from your presence and take not thy holy spirit from me', that is a piece of God's inspired Word. So even if it could be demonstrated conclusively that OT 'God fearers' had the Holy Spirit, it would seem that the Holy SPirit's function was slightly different.
     
  16. webdog

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    2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness

    Please show me from both the OT and NT individuals that were deemed by God as both "righteous" and "godly".
     
  17. Bob Alkire

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    How about real life. As I said I've done business with folks who are calvinistic ( as well as other Christians) who were carnal at that point in time. As I said we should not judge a person over the moment.

    1st. John 1:8 tell us we all are sinners and 1st. John 1:9 tell us when we come back to thinking correctly we will ask for forgiveness from Him and He will give it to us.

    Would you have said David in The OT was carnal or lost in 2nd. Samuel 11, I believe 2nd. Samuel 12 tells us he was saved but carnal at the time of chapter 11. I believe David was out of fellowship at the time but not lost, we know he was a praying man, but at this point of time he was in the wrong place, looking at what he would not have seen if he had either been praying or leading his army. Most all of us have been at the wrong place because we were not doing what we should have been doing, because we were out of fellowship with God at that moment in time. That moment of time could be an hour or less or weeks or even years. How about Peter and his fear, or the person next door, or how about yourself?
     
  18. Jarthur001

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    Yes I do understand. Just as the reformers said long ago, you can find the doctrines of grace on every page of the Bible. Its amazing when you see this. Passages I had read before and did not see anything but a surface meaning, became clear after I gave myself over to Gods Sovereign working not only in Heaven but on earth and now I see it in those passages and all books of the Bible.

    I changes my prayer life. A God in control will change a mans heart. I can now pray to God and ask God to over power mans will and save my friend with a newness that this is in fact how God saves.

    It changes my outlook on life, because nothing is now mine, not my house or car or my wife. By 3 girls are not my own but are Gods. I pray that God keeps them safe, but it is God that gives and God that takes away. I lose nothing for I am nothing and I have nothing. Any blessing that comes, came because of God. I am thankful while I have them, but they are not mine.

    If my car stops working, it is not up to me to fix it, but Gods. It was His car...He just let me use it. Therefore He will bless me with money to have it fix, or maybe He wants me to walk. It matters little, for God is in control when He gave me the car, and He was in control when He took it. If I'm late for work, because I must walk, God wants me to be late to work. There is a reason for every thing. There is no such things as car demons as I have heard some joke. The devil didn't make my tire go flat because I witnessed to someone. God allowed or caused it to go flat because He loves me.

    All of life is about God. I'm looking for a camera now on ebay. I have asked God many times today to not let me spend His money in a foolish way. I will ask God for a parking place when I go to town. Everything is about God.
     
  19. Jarthur001

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    This is a perfect example of what I just said above. I would have never seen this before. Notice it is God that changes men. In this case it is Gods Word that makes them wise unto salvation. Notice also, that it is to the man of God that these things are given, not to the non elect. It is God that Gives scripture. It is given that the man of God may be perfect.

    2 tim 3 15-17

    It is found on all pages
     
    #19 Jarthur001, Oct 7, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 7, 2007
  20. christianyouth

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    Bob, I don't want to appear holier than thou. I'm definitely not. The saying that 'my people have done two great evils, they have left me the fountain of living water and have hewn out for themselves broken cisterns that can hold no water' epitomizes my life lately. However, the scripture is true, 'let God be true and everyman a liar.' I won't comment on this, but I would suggest for you to go back and read the verses I posted.

    Your brother,
    - Andy

    EDIT : I wanted to add this. I am not saying we are without sin. We do sin, becaue as you said, 1 John 1:8, and Romans 7. Paul spoke of the battle he faced, the things he wanted to do he doesn't do and the things he doesn't want to do he does. He speaks of the war between the flesh and the Spirit. But that is it, brother. There is a war. In the unconverted, there is no war. They are enslaved to sin. They have no capacity for righteoussness, because they are 'dead in sin and trespasses.'

    Also, we as Christians need to recognize that when we sin, we will be miserable. We can no longer be satisfied by the sin we once committed prior to conversion. We are new creatures. Sometimes we will enjoy it for a season, but before long God will chastise us as a father chastens his sons.

    There will be a change in our lives. I say this, and it's scary, because the majority of people who are 'saved' and have at one time professed faith, have Jesus as their savior and Satan as their Lord. They are lost, and preachers who preach this impotent Gospel that does not make disciples(the great commission.hrmm) don't deserve to be in a pulpit. I say that not in a spirit of hate, but in a spirit of fear. I fear for the future of Christianity.
     
    #20 christianyouth, Oct 7, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 7, 2007

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