Confirmation in 2013 of Prophetic Messages

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Jun 26, 2013.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    On another thread - I stopped following the discussion for a while - and got this complaint from one of our members here --



    Originally Posted by targus [​IMG]
    How do you know that God has given prophetic messages through Ellen White?

    Why do you accept her as a prophet and not others?

    She supposedly wrote over fifty books - it should be easy for you to pick out a few sentences somewhere and explain to us how her words are a message from God.

    How do you know that Ellen White did not just "make stuff up" and that you have not simply bought into a huge lie?



    ================================================


    So then I responded:




    1. The Bible tells us to accept the messages God gives to His prophets for the church (see 1Thess 5:19-20, Isaiah 8) and to "desire earnestly spiritual gifts especially that you may prophesy" 1Cor 14:1.

    2. But God also tells us to "test the spirits" and to discern between true prophets and false prophets (1Johh 4:1-3). Notice that God does not say "the test is - the prophet has to be named the Apostle John" when giving this message to John in 1John 4:1 - as so many have imagined the test to be.

    In 1John 4 a test - is that they have to teach and promote the fact that Jesus is the Son of God who came in the flesh in the incarnation.

    In Isaiah 8:20 the test is that the prophet's message claimed to be from God must also be judged by and tested by the doctrines as stated in the Bible itself. (This is why I find it pointless to discuss the subject of a true or false prophet with someone before first discussing the subject of basic Bible doctrines.)

    3. And another example is that the message must be found to be accurate and true in terms of events, past, present, future as it is claimed that God is making the statement - God is giving the message to a prophet.

    Just a few examples of this can be found here -
    Predictions Claims - fulfilled:
    http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-prophecy-Ellen_White-true-predictions-Bible



    WSJ (Wall Street Journal) 2013 independent article
    JAMA 2013 Article confirms health results.

    (Since a number of quotes and predictions at that link involve health -- it is Interesting that the Journal of the American Medical Assoc came out with this study related to health and Seventh-day Adventists --
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...41042514.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLE_Video_second)

    4. And as far as doctrine goes - there is always the fact that she agrees with the Bible on the subject of the origin of the Sabbath - right where the Baptist Confession of Faith - ALSO agrees is the Bible origin for Sabbath -- and yet you differ.


    I think you would agree that her view that the Bible origin for the 4th Commandment as given to all mankind - in Eden - is in perfect agreement with the Bible and the Baptist Confession of Faith - 1689 - -but you choose to differ.

    (And so an answer was posted)

    What is the expected objective response?

    is it "I don't care to look at the details in your response to my question for you"??

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #1 BobRyan, Jun 26, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2013
  2. targus

    targus
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    So that a "healthy diet" makes one "more healthy" proves that Ellen White is a "prophet"?

    You certainly set the bar low for your "prophets". :laugh:
     
  3. The Biblicist

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    Do you think that 1 Jn. 4:1 is the only text or test given to prove one is a prophet from God????? Try Deut. 13:1-4 and 18:20-22 both of which Ellen G. White fails miserably. She described "tall majestic people" on Saturn! (Truesdale Letter, Jan. 27, 1891). She prophesied that some of her audiance would be "food for worms" during the seven last plagues of Revelation while the others in her present audiance would be translated (Testimonies, Vol. 1, p. 131; Early Writings, pp. 64-67). She plagerized the vast majority of her books in so much that SDA investigators admitted that in some books up to 90% had been copied without giving credit to the author but under the guise of revelation directly from God as a prophetess (Ministry, Dec. 1990, p. 11,14; ElenWhiteExpose.com).

    The institution founded by a false prophet and doctrine of a false prophet all originate with the same "spirit" or "doctrines of demons" - 1 Tim. 4:1
     
  4. Yeshua1

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    She denied cardinal truth od saved by gace alone/faith alone, and claimed to have revelation knowledge from the Lord, but canon is closed!

    FALSE PROPHET, right there with pastor Russell/Joseph Smith!
     
  5. BobRyan

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    You missed the entire 1John 4 point. John says that the TEST is NOT "is the prophet's name JOHN" as many Baptists here have supposed.

    My list includes Isaiah 8:20.

    I believe in the "Sola Scriptura" testing that you find in Acts 17:11.

    As for predictions - I provided a link for that in the OP.



    I provided the quote for Jonah saying "Nineveh will be destroyed in 40 days" - not "might be" not "will be unless you repent".

    However in Jer 18 God explains that prophetic messages for blessings and for curses are subjec to the "condition" of repentance or rebellion in response to them -

    Thus as we all know - Jonah is not found to be a "False prophet" even though he gives a 40 day - then cursed and destroyed - message without any options.


    You are focused on "custom" that is not applicable even in the Bible nore even in the 1800's.

    And though you resort to name calling - you should not confuse the point of my post above. I never argue that people in one denomination are required to accept a prophet in another denomination for the same reason that a Methodist cannot be expected to accept one of those bapti-costal prophets that claim that God told them that believer's baptism by immersion is in fact the only way to do it.

    The Methodist first has to discover that doctrine in the Bible - and understand it - before they could test the bapti-costal candidate accurately.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #5 BobRyan, Jun 26, 2013
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  6. BobRyan

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    Take a wild guess as to the diet baptists were recommending in the 1860's.

    Part two - read the actual text of the link that deals with heath items - going far beyond the vegetarian realm.

    Your posts would have more convincing power - if they contained more details or at least responded to the details in the text of the post you respond to.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. BobRyan

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    In the fiction of those who enjoy making stuff up ...the claim is made that she denied the "saved by grace through faith" doctrine of Eph 2 in some mythical incident where she supposedly gave a message from God to that effect.

    But as it turns out - she never did this in real life - it is just a less than accurate story some like to repeat.

    An interesting detail that some will find fascinating.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. targus

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    The "salient point" is that "diet recommendations" do not a "prophet make".

    How about telling us if "wearing wigs causes insanity"?

    You keep avoiding that one. :laugh:
     
  9. targus

    targus
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    BobRyan - Serious question...

    Without first assuming that Ellen White was a true prophet, how do you know that her "food for worms" vision was a "conditional prophesy" and not merely a "failed prophesy"?

    I would think that you would take this distinction very seriously given that the difference may mean that you are in a false church following a false prophet and preaching a false gospel.

    There is a lot riding on being right isn't there?
     
  10. BobRyan

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    First of all it is unnusual to find you asking a serious question -- so I am glad when it does happen.

    Secondly - have you even read Jeremiah 18?

    Have you "noticed" how the message of Jonah fits that case?

    Because IMHO you don't have to first accept Ellen White as a true prophet - to read Jeremiah 18 with understanding and then notice "the details" in the book of Jonah.

    Serious question here to you.

    Just sticking with the basics so we can get to the point of the question.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. The Biblicist

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    Where on earth do you get that rediculous charge against Baptists??? Name a source please or don't make such a weird accusation.





    That prophesy included much more than specifics about people but specifics about specific end time applications. Jonah did not apply end time applications to his audiance.

    "what we have been YEARS learning, they will have to learn in a FEW MONTHS" - Early Writings, pp. 64-67

    "the seven last plagues.......at the coming of Jesus" - Testimonies, Vol. 1, p. 131

    No comparison between Jonah and White.


    No such conditions were stated by White and could not possibly be stated by White since she pinpoints the precise time of specific final eschatalogical events within the space of a "few months." Give us break!

    Again, she gave no conditions or exceptions and could not possibly do so because either they were living in the final "few months" when these specifics occurred or they were not - period.


    "custom"?????? She lied, as she claimed these writings were given directly to her from God - that is lying when the truth is they were plagerized and the Bible condemns plagerization as well as lying. She is a lying prophetess and that is a false prophetess.

    "I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.....Therefore, behold, I am against the prophet, saith the LORD, that steal my words everyone from his neighbor." - Jer. 23:25,30
     
    #11 The Biblicist, Jun 27, 2013
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  12. targus

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    Then perhaps you would be so kind as to ANSWER THE QUESTION!

    That you are able cite a conditional prophesy in Scripture does not mean that Ellen White's "food for worms" vision was actually a conditional prophesy.

    I ask again... Without first assuming that Ellen White was a true prophet, how do you know that her "food for worms" vision was a "conditional prophesy" and not merely a "failed prophesy"?
     
  13. TrevorL

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    Greetings Bob,

    I was interested in this thread but could not decipher what was being said. Perhaps this is because it is a resumption of an earlier discussion, and also both yourself and Targus are much more familiar with the writings of EG White.

    I have had some contact with SDAs, partly because I worked near a major SDA centre at Coorangbong NSW Australia where EG White lived towards the end of her life. I have viewed her former residence which is preserved. There were quite a number of SDAs at work and although I did not discuss the Bible with them at length I had a respect for them as reasonably dedicated and committed to their beliefs. I exchanged books with one of them – I gave him one and he gave me SDAs Believe – A Biblical Exposition of 27 Fundamental Doctrines. I also obtained from a workmate whose mother and brother were SDAs, SDAs Answer Questions on Doctrine, and The Prophecies of Daniel and the Revelation.

    I have also two books by EG White, The Desire of Ages, and The Great Controversy. I have also miscellaneous literature obtained from various sources as well as a partial attendance at a Daniel Seminar.

    I would be interested in what you would recommend amongst all this literature. Do you recommend the two books by EG White? If you hold her to be a prophet, are there any portions of her books soon to be fulfilled in detail? Are there any portions that have recently been fulfilled? In other words, if she is a true prophet where is the clear evidence of this? Especially seeing the title of this thread is “Confirmation in 2013 of Prophetic Messages”.

    I understand the role of a prophet to be to forth-tell and foretell. Do most SDAs cherish the writings of EG White as being of great enlightenment and guidance, or do they rely on more recent expositors?

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  14. Yeshua1

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    ALL trhat we need to do is see her claims to be the prophetess over the remant 'true church", and to have revelations on sabbath day keeping and Inverstigory judgemnet to se her as "blind leading the blind!"
     
  15. BobRyan

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    Trevor the way to define a prophet is to see what the Bible says.

    In Numbers 12 - God says this.

    6 Then He said,“Hear now My words:
    If there is a prophet among you,
    I, the Lord, make Myself known to him in a vision;
    I speak to him in a dream.

    7 Not so with My servant Moses;
    He is faithful in all My house.
    8 I speak with him face to face,
    Even plainly, and not in dark sayings;
    And he sees the form of the Lord.
    Why then were you not afraid
    To speak against My servant Moses?”
    ===================================


    Does that sound like nothing more than "forth telling"?


    In 1Cor 12 Prophets are given higher rank than Bible teachers and pastors.



    28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.


    This goes beyond "forthtelling" in the Bible for it is ahead of Bible teachers, pastors and miracles.


    Of all the Spiritual Gifts - one is to be desired above them all.





    In 1Cor 14:1 - after listing all of the spiritual gifts in 1Cor 12 we have this




    14 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

    In 1Cor 14 - all things are to be done in order - except for the case of prophesying. In that case the Spirit of God is in divine control of the moment and the content - so even if one is standing and given a message they must be seated - and let the prophet speak who has just been given a message.

    . 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.

    Peter points out that this is a matter of "men moved by the Holy Spirit - speak from God".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. BobRyan

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    Trevor - it is a pleasure to discuss this subject with you - as always when I see you post here.

    Yes I recommend those two books - particularly the "Great Controversy" if you are looking for predictions regarding the end of the world.

    As I mentioned in the OP -- if you are looking for a sample of predictions that have been verified -


    Just a few examples of this can be found here -
    Predictions Claims - fulfilled:
    http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-prop...dictions-Bible

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. BobRyan

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    Hint -- all of them were "food for worms" at some point - all died.



    You post as if you had no firsthand knowledge at all of Jeremiah 18 or the book of Job.

    Fine - then I am happy to read it to you.

    Here as in all cases "details matter".

    In an effort to make it exceedingly obvious to the unbiased objective readers - I will provide that Bible text in the next post -- by itself.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. BobRyan

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    [FONT=&quot]Conditional Prophecy doctrine as found in the Word of God.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]NKJV[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]7 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down[/FONT][FONT=&quot], and to destroy it, [/FONT]8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it.
    [FONT=&quot]9 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey [/FONT]My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

    [FONT=&quot]NASB[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]7 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent[/FONT][FONT=&quot] concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]9 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good[/FONT][FONT=&quot] with which I had promised to bless it.[/FONT]





    [FONT=&quot]First we notice that God establishes this as a general principle concerning prophecy of expected blessing or expected doom. He does not say to Jeremiah “Just for a few minutes here I will operate on the principle of conditional prophecy”. Rather this is a general principle.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Principle at work in the Bible:[/FONT]


    [FONT=&quot]Jonah 3: [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]3 Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah the second time, saying, 2 “Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and preach to it the message that I tell you.” 3 So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, a three-day journey in extent. 4 And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day’s walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]9 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Who can tell if God will turn and relent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish?[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]10 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.[/FONT]


    [FONT=&quot]-----------------[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]In this case we see that Jonah gives them “no out”. He simply says “40 days” is all they have left before the event takes place.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]The people of Nineveh decide to repent so that we may not perish – But not knowing of Jeremiah 18 they simply say “Who can tell if God will turn and relent, and turn away from His fierce anger”[/FONT]



    [FONT=&quot]Jonah 4:[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]9 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he said, I do well to be angry, even unto death.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]10 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Then said the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot], Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]11 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]-------------------[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Here we notice that God has concern for the number of people and animals in the city.

    Bible principles on the subject of prophecy - can be applied to the subject of prophecy - because "details matter".
    [/FONT]
     
  19. BobRyan

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    [FONT=&quot]Here we notice that God has concern for the number of people and animals in the city and so He spares them when they repent - even though the message was that in 40 days they would be destroyed.[/FONT]
     
  20. targus

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    Ok, we just keep going around and around on this without you explaining how you know that her "food for worms" vision was not simply just a failed prophesy.

    With your logic every false prophesy is a "conditional prophesy".

    Here is a much easier one...

    Does wearing wigs cause insanity as Ellen White wrote?

    BTW - not really expecting an answer since you have repeatedly ignored this question in other threads. I wonder why. :smilewinkgrin:
     

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