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Featured Confirmation in 2013 of Prophetic Messages

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Jun 26, 2013.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Give me the Bible - AND the WORDS IN the Bible

    including 1Thess 5:19-20 telling us NOT to reject prophetic messages.
    including 1John 4:1-4 telling us to test the spirits doctrinally to see who is a true prophet and a false prophet.

    Hint: In 1John 4 the "test" is not "Is the prophet's name JOhN" as so many have imagined it to be.

    And of course the Word in Isaiah 30:8-11
    Now go, write it before them on a tablet, And note it on a scroll,
    That it may be for time to come, Forever and ever:
    9 That this is a rebellious people, Lying children,
    Children who will not hear the law of the Lord;
    10 Who say to the seers, “Do not see,”
    And to the prophets, “Do not prophesy to us right things;
    Speak to us smooth things, prophesy deceits.
    11 Get out of the way, Turn aside from the path,
    Cause the Holy One of Israel     To cease from before us.”

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #81 BobRyan, Jul 18, 2013
  2. TrevorL

    TrevorL Member

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    Greetings again Bob,

    Perhaps it is not only EG White and the SDAs belief that the major issue at the end times will be the Sabbath / Sunday question. I believe the SDAs in effect ignore most of the end time prophecies, for example Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8, Daniel 11:40-45, Zechariah 14, possibly because of their emphasis on the future Sabbath question or conflict.

    It was interesting that a JW called on Wednesday. We mentioned Daniel 2, and unlike many that are on this board and perhaps responding to this thread, SDAs, JWs, and my belief have similar ideas concerning the 4 empires and the return of Christ to establish his kingdom Daniel 2:35,44. But as discussed with the JW we end up with different outcomes. The JWs send 144,000 up to heaven and only mostly JWs remain on earth while the nations are wiped out. The SDAs send all the faithful up to heaven and all the rest are destroyed and the earth is scorched for 1000 years. I believe Jesus literally returns, raises the faithful and rewards them with immortality, Jesus is enthroned on David’s throne in Jerusalem, he converts natural Israel and then converts and subjects the nations and reigns over them in peace for 1000 years.

    I test whether someone like EG White is a true prophet firstly by how they understand the existing prophecies both NT and OT.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
    #82 TrevorL, Jul 19, 2013
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The evangelical response to Dan 11 and Zech 14 is to make stuff up and they seldom agree with each other while doing it. It is therefore difficult to blame their confusion in that regard on others or to judge other eschatologies by that level of full-on confusion.

    By contrast - SDAs have a solid view of eschatology using the same day-for-year principle that evangelicals use in Dan 9 not only in Dan 9 but in Dan 7 and 8 and 9 showing how they all fit together perfectly.

    The evangelical response is to slice-and-dice single contiguous timelines into "pieces" inserted massive gaps of "unknown time" into a single time prophecy - such as Dan 9.

    There is simply no excuse for that kind of bible-wrenching and even they have to admit that no other Bible timeline in all of scripture will support such abuse. Even the 70 years of Dan 9:1-5 do not support it and evangelicals freely admit it.

    Irrefutable details in Rev 14:6-12
    1. contrasting true worship to God vs 7 compared to worship of the beast in vs 9-10
    2. Quotes from the 4th Commandment text in vs 7
    3. [FONT=&quot]Contrasts the saints as those who "KEEP the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus" vs 12 as opposed to those who worship the beast[/FONT]

    And yet some argue that this chapter - cannot have anything to do with the 4th commandment controversy as if that is the logical conclusion?

    The RCC singles out the 4th commandment as the "test" case for Catholicism vs Protestantism.

    D.L. Moody singles out the 4th commandment as the issue for Christians who reject one of God's commandments.

    Andy Stanley singles out the 4th commandment as the issue for Christians when it comes to the TEN Commandments.

    The Baptist Confession of Faith - and the Westminster Confession of Faith affirm the continued authority of the 4th commandment much to the shock and surprise of many Christians that claim that either it is "not immoral to break the 4th commandment" or they claim that "it is wrong to KEEP the 4th commandment as God gave it"

    Meanwhile James 2 says that to break one is to break them all.

    And in 1Cor 7:19 Paul says "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God". and in Rom 3:31 "We establish the Law of God by our faith" and in Heb 8 - the Jer 31:31-33 context for Law is written on the heart under the New Covenant

    and 1John 2:3-6 (and 1John 5:2-4) claim that those who claim to know God and yet do not keep His commandments - have a huge problem.

    Thus there is at least "some" evidence in favor of the idea that the 4th commandment will show up as an issue at the end of time.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #83 BobRyan, Jul 19, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 19, 2013
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Rev 19 says "the rest are destroyed" at the 2nd coming speaking of those in the armies of man destroyed and then the rest of the wicked not in those armies -- funny you should use that phrase.

    John 14:1-3 - Jesus says all the saints are going to heaven.
    1Thess 4 says all the righteous are taken up to heaven - at the first resurrection "The dead in Christ rise FIRST" then "We who are ALIVE and remain" are also taken up. That is all of them for there is only the living and the dead. No other group of saints.

    Rev 20 says that this happens at the Rev 19 second coming event "This is the FIRST resurrection".. "blessed and holy is he who has part in the FIRST resurrection"

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #84 BobRyan, Jul 19, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 19, 2013
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    how about delude by a demonic spirit operation in and thru teachings of a false prophetess?
     
    #85 Yeshua1, Jul 19, 2013
  6. TrevorL

    TrevorL Member

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    Greetings again Bob,

    I appreciate your two responses. I realise that SDAs have their favourite passages and they reinforce their position by repeating these. The following is a list of what you have quoted so far in these two posts:
    Rev 19, John 14:1-3, 1Thess 4, Rev 20, Dan 11, Dan 7 and 8 and 9, Dan 9:1-5 and Rev 14:6-12. To fully discuss each of these would take a lot of time and effort.

    Could I ask the following: Are you satisfied with the SDA view of Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8 and Zechariah 14? My understanding of these passages is that there will be mortals upon the earth for the 1000 years and these will be the remnant of the nations after Armageddon, who will be converted after the return of Jesus from heaven.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
    #86 TrevorL, Jul 21, 2013
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Dan 9:1-5 is pretty simple - it is just Daniel admitting to the fact of Jeremiah's 70 year prophecy - which cannot be sliced and diced. Even the evangelical groups agree with this - so it is by no means a big deal to unravel.

    Daniel 7 uses a 1260 day (day for year) model for the dark ages.

    Daniel 8 uses a 2300 day (day for year) model for describing history from the time of the Persian Empire in its domination state - all the way to the same termination point described in Daniel 7 where the little horn power is deposed.

    Daniel 9 uses a 490 day (70 weeks- day for year) model for predicting the start of the Messiah's ministry (anointed by the Holy Ghost at His baptism).

    All of these timelines are consistent as long as you don't slice 'em up and insert undefined gaps of time into each one. Even our evangelical friends know enough not to do that with the timelines n Dan 7 and 8 and the 70 years of Dan 9:1-5. Should be simple to get that much as well.

    Rev 20 talks about the millennium that happens after the Rev 19 2nd coming event. I think almost everyone agrees on that sequence in terms of Millennium coming after the 2nd coming.

    1Thess 4 describes the rapture - which most people will agree is the time when the dead in Christ rise first -and then the living saints are taken up with them to heaven. Very few people object to that part of the text.

    Rev 14:6-12 quotes from the 4th commandment, commands worship of the true God, warns against worshiping the beast or accepting the mark of the beast and ends with "the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus".

    All this - because you asked about eschatology.

    The solution cannot be - to avoid this part of the Bible given that in several aspects there is so much agreement.

    I think so.

    Zech 9 describes the first coming of Christ where Jesus comes riding into Jerusalem on a donkey. It is even quoted in the Gospels as such.

    Surely you can agree to that basic point see Zech 9:9.

    Then Zech 9:10 says that all wars end and Jesus reigns at that point - from sea to sea.

    Surely you can admit that while vs 9 has happened - vs 10 has not.

    Thus you have a "mix" even in Zech 9 of different times.

    Does it come as a surprise to you that Zech 14 does the same thing -- because that is in fact what happens again in Zech 14. A mix of different times into the same description. Nothing new - just does the same thing as in Zech 9.

    As for the earth during the Millennium it is totally desolated. There is "no man" because the saints are all taken to heaven (1Thess 4) both the dead and the living -- AND "The rest were killed by the sword that comes from His mouth" Rev 19.

    That leaves "no man".

    "I looked and behold there was NO MAN" Jer 4

    It leaves only the "feast of the birds" on earth.

    Jer 4:23
    I looked on the     EARTH, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
    24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the     hills moved to and fro.
    25 I looked, and behold, there was No Man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
    26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And     all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.


    Rev 19
    17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, "" Come, assemble for the great supper of God,
    18 so that you may     eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.''


    Ez 32:4-8
    4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
    5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
    6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.


    Romans 9 says that the failed prophecies for Israel - will be fulfilled in the church.

    In Isaiah 2 - God rules on Earth. In Rev21 and 22 - the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven to earth - and God rules on earth. (Almost all denominations agree with that Rev 21-22 part)

    Micah 4:1-4 clearly fits that same post millennial - New Jerusalem on earth scenario.

    However prior to the rejection of Christ by the Jews - they still had a golden future ahead of them - that finally ended just as Christ said in Matt 23 and as Paul points out in 1Thess 2 when their cup of iniquity became full and the rejection of Israel at the end of the 490 years of probation given to them in Dan 9 is completed.



    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #87 BobRyan, Jul 21, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2013
  8. TrevorL

    TrevorL Member

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    Greetings again Bob,
    I tentatively agree with all the above.
    We may have some differences if we really discussed aspects of the above.

    Fair enough.
    This is where we part company as you see most of these as after the 1000 years. Both Isaiah 2 and Micah 4 have the following:
    Isaiah 2:4 (KJV): And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
    Zechariah 14:16-17 (KJV): 16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
    These terms cannot apply to those who have been in heaven for the 1000 years. It speaks of the remnant of the nations upon the earth immediately after the judgements at the battle of Armageddon.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
    #88 TrevorL, Jul 22, 2013
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    You could say the same thing about Zech 9 with Jesus ruling from sea to shining sea - and claim that this is not talking about Christ on Palm Sunday.

    That is the nature of a prophecy that mixes time contexts and gives no specific timeline.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #89 BobRyan, Jul 22, 2013
  10. TrevorL

    TrevorL Member

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    Greetings again Bob,
    I have no problem with Zechariah 9:9-10 speaking of Jesus riding into Jerusalem at his first advent and then the ultimate result that he will rule from sea to sea. I imagine that you believe that Jesus will reign from sea to sea after the 1000 years, a gap of 3000 years, while I believe that this will occur at the start of the 1000 years a gap of 2000 years.

    What I am drawing attention to is the following underlined portions of these prophecies:
    Isaiah 2:4 (KJV): And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
    Will the faithful after the 1000 years beat their swords into plowshares? Will the faithful be drawn from those that had swords before Armageddon, and will these swords survive on a desolated earth for the 1000 years, and then be utilised when they return from heaven?

    Zechariah 14:16-17 (KJV): 16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
    Will some of the faithful after the 1000 years refuse to come up to Jerusalem and as a result receive Divine judgement or discipline with the withholding of rain?

    These terms cannot apply to those who have been in heaven for the 1000 years. It speaks of the remnant of the nations upon the earth immediately after the judgements at the battle of Armageddon.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
    #90 TrevorL, Jul 23, 2013
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Which is not possible given that on earth during the 1000 years - Isaiah says that all the cities are destroyed and there is "no man" on the earth.


    Both Micah and Isaiah are writing before the cross and before the 490 years of probation for Israel is over. They still had the blessed future ahead of them should they choose not to fall into rebellion against God in the future.

    The prophets were not bound to only predicting failure for the Jews.

    Thus the future they predict had to include the option of one where the Jews are faithful.


    By contrast we do have the failed result - what would happen if they reject the Messiah. Now that the timeline has unfolded we can see it.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #91 BobRyan, Jul 23, 2013
  12. TrevorL

    TrevorL Member

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    Greetings again Bob,
    I think you are referring to Jeremiah 4:23-26 which you quoted in an earlier post.
    Jeremiah 4:23-26 (KJV): 23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. 24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. 25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. 26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
    This is certainly poetical language as it depicts the land as if it was like before the creation. The first fulfillment of this was the destruction of the land of Judah and the city of Jerusalem at the hands of Babylon. I also note that you did not include the next verse.
    Jeremiah 4:27 (KJV): For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

    At the time of Jesus’ return and intervention there will be judgement and destruction, but the net effect will be a times of refreshing and restoration upon the earth. It is only the SDAs that believe that the earth will be desolate for the 1000 years.
    Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
    The prophets predicted the failure of the Jews to respond, and this for example is one of the main themes of Isaiah’s prophecy.
    Isaiah 6:9-10 (KJV): 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
    Despite Israel’s failure to respond at the first advent, God is yet to act and bring judgement and conversion to the present unbelieving nation of Israel and Jewry. Ezekiel 38-40 and Zechariah 13-14 clearly speak of this process. Ezekiel 40 and Zechariah 14 are not dependent upon Judah being faithful at the first advent. Rather these things will be the outcome despite their failure at that time.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
    #92 TrevorL, Jul 24, 2013
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Hello Trevor -

    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    Which is not possible given that on earth during the 1000 years - Isaiah says that all the cities are destroyed and there is "no man" on the earth.


    Agreed - my mistake in the post above.


    Jeremiah 4:23-26 (KJV): 23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. 24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. 25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. 26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.


    The earth is revisited from its desolate state in Rev 21 after the millennium - the New Jerusalem comes down to it.

    The Earth is remade into the New Earth.

    But during the millennium there is no light in the heavens, the hills move to and fro, earth quakes, cities in ruin. No human on the earth alive.

    [
    Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

    That is a reference to the time of the Latter Rain that will occur just before the 2nd coming. It will be an even greater Pentecost than Acts 2.


    Isaiah is speaking to Israel of his day in rebellion against God and about to be taken captive by the Babylonians. One can hardly ignore his message of doom to the nation that is in rebellion in his day and about to go into captivity.

    I think we can all see that.

    But that rebellion is repeated in the days of Christ -

    And as Christ stated in Matt 23 that he wanted to spare the children of Israel - but the leaders would not allow it.


    It is not at all surprising that OT prophets predicted immediate doom and also the promise of returning to Israel and the hope of reformation and revival prior to the coming of the Messiah.

    Israel had not at that time crossed the limit of their probation. Yet in Matt 23 and in 1Thess 2 we are told that they had passed it. As we also see in Dan 9 and the 490 years given to them to choose one way or the other.

    According to Jeremiah 18 all prophecies both for blessing and for curse are dependent on the choice of those being blessed or cursed.

    Zech 9 is a perfect example of times being mixed just as we see in Matt 24 and in Zech 14.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #93 BobRyan, Jul 25, 2013
  14. FriendofSpurgeon

    FriendofSpurgeon Well-Known Member
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    Listed below is the Baptist Confession of 1989 regarding Worship (italics added).

    "As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages to this effect. He has particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath to be kept holy for Him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished."

    So in other words, this is the same as all other Christian denominations.
     
    #94 FriendofSpurgeon, Jul 25, 2013
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Spurgeon has been getting hammered on this section of the board for his edited version and support of the "Baptist Confession of Faith".

    We have been told that his views on the 4th commandment in that document do not carry any weight with Baptists in this present age.

    It is nice to see that someone does admit to and affirm the views that Spurgeon published in his own revision the Baptist Confession of Faith.

    But it is interesting to note that while he admits that week-day-1 is Sunday, (making week-day-7 the seventh day - Saturday) he struggles to call it by the Bible name (Sabbath or the seventh day) and uses a term not found in all of scripture "the last day of the week".

    What was he afraid of?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #95 BobRyan, Jul 26, 2013
  16. TrevorL

    TrevorL Member

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    Greetings again Bob,

    Despite your response to the following I would like to briefly expand.
    Both Ezekiel 38-40 and Zechariah 13-14 and many other prophecies anticipated the failure of Israel to respond to Messiah at his first advent, but they also anticipate their conversion at the second advent.

    Looking first at Ezekiel 38. This predicts an invasion from the north and in many respects this is parallel with other prophecies that speak of the Battle of Armageddon in Joel 3:1-17, Daniel 11:40-45, Zechariah 14:1-7, Revelation 16:12-16. Ezekiel 38 anticipates the scattering and regathering of Israel. This is not the 70 years of the Babylonian captivity because it speaks of the latter days. The northern invader comes after their regathering:
    Ezekiel 38:8-12 (KJV): 8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them. 9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee. 10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought: 11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates, 12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.
    This anticipates their scattering because they rejected their Messiah, but we know that only recently they have returned to the land in anticipation of the other events depicted in Ezekiel 38.

    Ezekiel 39:21-29 (KJV): 21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them. 22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward. 23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. 24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them. 25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name; 26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid. 27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies’ lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; 28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. 29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
    This also clearly reinforces the fact that it was not the 70 years of the Babylonian captivity. They were scattered because they rejected their Messiah and the events of Ezekiel 38-39 will bring about their conversion and acceptance.

    Zechariah 13-14 also has the same scenario, in that the rejection and crucifixion of their Messiah is anticipated in the following:
    Zechariah 13:7 (KJV): Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
    Then in the rest of Zechariah 13 and 14 it speaks of the process whereby Israel will be converted and the nations made subject to Christ on earth for the 1000 years.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
    #96 TrevorL, Jul 27, 2013
  17. TrevorL

    TrevorL Member

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    Greetings again Bob,

    In my previous Post I drew attention to the many parallel passages that speak of the Battle of Armageddon. These passages do not depict the destruction of the earth and its inhabitants when Christ returns, but rather that Jesus intervenes and as a result he subdues and converts the nations. It is interesting that Micah presents a similar picture to Isaiah 2:1-4 in his prophecy in Micah 4:1-8 but he includes additional detail to Isaiah. Micah includes the regathering and conversion of natural Jacob or Israel. Micah also speaks of a latter-day Assyrian, and Jesus is identified as the one who will overcome this northern invader.
    Micah 5:2 (KJV): 2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
    Micah 5:4-6 (KJV): 4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. 5 And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. 6 And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.
    It is interesting that Micah prophesied in the days of Hezekiah, and these prophecies were partially or typically fulfilled in Hezekiah. In a similar fashion Isaiah 53 has a typical or partial fulfillment in Hezekiah.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
    #97 TrevorL, Jul 28, 2013
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Hello again Trevor -



    No one is rejecting the possibility that a Jew might be converted before the 2nd coming - into accepting the first coming of Christ as the Messiah.

    What is being rejected is that the Jewish nation itself will step into the evangelist role that it once had - instead of the church.

    Thus the two outcomes the OT prophets were identifying was the two possible futures for Israel before it rejects its Messiah.

    And where the Jews choose failure - there Romans 9 says Christ places the promised blessing on the church.


    That is the problem with the model you are using. It selects prophets speaking BEFORE the regathering of Israel after Babylonian captivity and then when they predict that very regathering - that model tries to insert "yes but not that one".

    And the reason as you point out above - is because in that model of regathering there is a reference to the last days as if God is presenting it as a type of the ultimate gathering of the saints to God at the 2nd coming.

    But in claiming that as the exemption - you fall into the trap of Zech 9 where by the model you are using the first coming of Christ no longer qualifies as the fulfillment to Zech 9 - since in that chapter he rules all the earth from sea to sea.

    Your model tries to have it "both ways". Admitting in Zech 9 that those 2nd-coming specific details do not disqualify the text from applying to the first coming of Christ.

    While claiming iin some other cases that references to any event at the 2nd coming disqualifies the text from applying to the upcoming regathering of Israel back from Babylon. Not sure that they can have it both ways.

    What is more Biblically consistent is to note that the upcoming regathering of Israel from Babylon is a type of the gathering of the saints to God at the 2nd coming.


    1. Nothing in the text says that this is a scattering "because they rejected the Messiah" - that is a key point not to be skipped over lightly.

    2. At the time that Ezek is writing they are already scattered.

    3. They are going to be regathered out of Babylon future to Ezekiel's prophecy. And they were not scattered for rejecting the Messiah. That is a known fact from history.

    4. The future for Israel of Ezekiel's day included the possibility of their returning from Babylon in obedience to God rather than resorting back to a form of rebellion that would even crucify their own Messiah.




    In the book of 2Chronicles and Ezra the exact same claim is made that Israel goes into captivity because of their rebellion and sins against God. Ezek writes about this given fact - in complete agreement with Ezra, and Ezek and Daniel 9:1-10
    Here again we have the restoration from the captivity that they are in while Ezek is writing.

    No mention at all of rejecting the Messiah in Ezek 38 or 39 as the reason for captivity.

    Nothing in Zech 13 or 14 states that it is Israel that turns against their own Messiah. Even in Is 53 we see the suffering of Christ - but in both Isaiah 53 and in Zech 13 it is claimed that God has applied the stroke to the Messiah - for us - for his people - "to whom the stroke was due".

    Nothing in all of the OT speaks of the nation of Israel as being at war against its own Messiah or predicts that Israel itself will fail in the way that Matt 23 states - where Christ weeps having desired to save Jews " but you would not".

    When Christ weeps over Jerusalem He says "if you had only known" the time of your deliverance. They knew it not -- "He came to his own and his own received him not". John 1

    The 490 years for Jewish probation ended after the coming of the Messiah and crucifixion and stoning of Stephen.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #98 BobRyan, Jul 28, 2013
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    This is the prophecy used in the Gospels to confirm the first coming of Christ - the birth of the Messiah.

    It also shows that the Messiah born - 2000 years ago - was God Himself.
    What is more interesting for this conversation is that vs 3 applies to the first coming of Christ no matter the details in vs 4-6.

    Thus vs 4-6 speak of the possible future for Israel had the accepted the vs 3 Messiah.

    Nothing in this chapter depicts Israel turning against the vs 3 Messiah and crucifying him instead of letting him lead them.

    When Jesus comes to Jerusalem on Palm Sunday as their king - their leaders come out and insist that the people be silent. The leaders were plotting the death of the Messiah on that palm Sunday as he came riding in on the donkey. That is not in this text at all.

    The text above presents the glorious future of Israel accepting the vs 3 Messiah with the result of vs 4-5.

    Notice that in Ezra 1 and Daniel 9 - Israel does not even return from Babylonian captivity without first being in repentance and submitting to God - confessing their sins. In Zech 1 - God says that Israel must first "return to ME AND THEN I will return to you". God does not encourage rebellion by rewarding it with blessing. This was the lesson for all of the centuries of Israel's captivity.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #99 BobRyan, Jul 28, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 28, 2013
  20. TrevorL

    TrevorL Member

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    Greetings again Bob,
    I will attempt to take the essence of your responses by quoting a few portions:
    I differ here, as I believe that the prophecies are not conditional on Israel accepting Jesus as their Messiah at the first coming. I believe that the prophecies are true and many aspects are yet to be fulfilled in the restoration and conversion of Israel and the subjection and conversion of the nations. A close analysis of these prophecies require Israel rejecting their Messiah for the exact details to be fulfilled.
    I am not sure of what you are saying wrt Zechariah 9. I believe that the portion of Zechariah 9:9-10 that speaks of Zion’s King ruling from sea to sea will be when Jesus, the Son of David sits upon the throne of David in Jerusalem for the 1000 years. It is necessary to read all of Psalm 72 to show that it speaks of the second coming and the kingdom on earth for the 1000 years:
    Psalm 72:1 (KJV): Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king’s son.
    Psalm 72:8 (KJV): He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.
    Luke 1:30-33 (KJV): 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
    Isaiah 2:1-4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
    But it was the leaders of Israel who conspired to put Jesus to death. They smote the shepherd of Israel.
    Zechariah 13:6-7 (KJV): 6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. 7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

    Let us consider the captivity of AD70 and you will notice that Jesus claims that what is happening to Judah and Jerusalem is because of what the OT prophets have spoken:
    Luke 21:22-24 (KJV): 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
    We have witnessed by the facts of history that Rome overthrew Judah and Jerusalem in AD 70, but this predicts that it is for a period of time, the times of the Gentiles. This period of 2300 years of captivity and subjection was complete in AD 1967 when the Jews regained Jerusalem from the hands of the Gentiles.

    Joel in his prophecy speaks of the release from captivity of Judah (in 1948) and Jerusalem (in 1967) before the Battle of Armageddon:
    Joel 3:1-2 (KJV): 1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
    Joel 3:9-11 (KJV): 9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: 10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. 11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
    Joel uses the same language as Isaiah 2:1-4, but this time it is in preparation for the Battle of Armageddon. Isaiah speaks of the aftermath of this Battle.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
    #100 TrevorL, Jul 29, 2013
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