Conflict between OT priests and OT prophets?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Michael Wrenn, Oct 15, 2012.

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  1. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn
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    I post this here so all will be able to participate.

    Does anyone see a conflict between OT priests and OT prophets in their views of how God deals with humans and what he requires of them? I do. And I think the life and teaching of Jesus is in the line of the OT prophets.

    I know this thread will probably be controversial, but I hope this can be discussed without the all-too-often charges of apostasy, heresy, and the questioning of another's salvation.
     
  2. Revmitchell

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    Your post is to vague. Maybe you should clarify by naming some specifics. But just a reminder if you suggest that direct commands of God are in conflict with each other you may receive a bit of a rebuke.
     
  3. OldRegular

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    So one more time you are questioning the truth of the revelation of God, ascribing conflict where none can exist!
     
  4. Scarlett O.

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    Michael, I'm not sure that I understand your question.

    I don't see a conflict between priest and prophet. I see a difference between them. The priest represented the people in that he presented their repentance to God at the altar and in the Holy of Holies. And conversely, the prophets represented God's voice to the people.

    Could you explain a bit more?

     
  5. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn
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    The first part of your post is an abject falsehood.

    There is conflict, however.
     
  6. The Biblicist

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    The only confict is in your own mind as God is the author of both and to charge they are in conflict with each other is to charge God as the author of confusion.

    The Preist speaks to God in behalf of men while the Prophet speaks to men in behalf of God.
     
  7. OldRegular

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    This is what I mean MW! You are questioning the truth of the revelation of God!

    My emphasis.

    From:http://www.baptistboard.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1907958
     
  8. billwald

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    Same in Jesus' time: The priests has political power and were opposed by the prophets.
     
  9. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn
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  10. Michael Wrenn

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    In all religions, there is conflict between the teachings of the priests and those of the prophets; OT Judaism was no different, and in Christianity the same is true, with some following and emphasizing the priestly tradition and some the prophetic tradition, and with some there is a mixture.

    Take the teaching of what God desires of humans:

    First, consider the words of Jesus:

    Matthew 9:13

    Matthew 12:7

    Then, consider the following:

    Jeremiah 7: 22,23

    Hosea 6:6

    Hosea 8: 11-13

    1 Samuel 15:22

    Psalm 40: 6-8

    Psalm 50: 9-15

    Psalm 51: 15-17

    Isaiah 1: 10-20

    Isaiah 66: 1-4

    Amos 5: 21,22

    Micah 6: 6-8


    This will do for now.
     
  11. OldRegular

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    You deny the necessity of the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ. Your posts show you have little respect for the Word of God!
     
    #11 OldRegular, Oct 16, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2012
  12. Yeshua1

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    God "requirement" was always the same, to keep the Law perfectly, and His solution to man inability to do that was the Cross of Christ, as ALL the Bible witnesses to that Truth!
     
  13. OldRegular

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    Matthew 9:3. But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    Matthew 12:7. But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.


    ***************************************************************
    MW apparently believes there is conflict between the Scripture above and the Scripture below. I see none! Perhaps he is more perceptive than I am or perhaps he deliberately sees conflict where there is none. I believe it is the latter based on his previous statements!

    ***************************************************************
    Jeremiah 7:22, 23
    22. For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
    23. But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

    Hosea 6:6. For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
     
  14. Yeshua1

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    what God always has required is : By grace you are saved, thru faith, and that is NOT of works!
     
  15. Michael Wrenn

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    After reading the responses in the section where I asked for prayer, some from people I have had run-ins with, I am very humbled by all the responses there. So, post whatever untruths you want about me; I will not respond in kind to you.

    But if you want to talk about respect for the Word of God, if you deny the truth of the scripture passages I listed, where is your respect for the Word of God?
     
    #15 Michael Wrenn, Oct 17, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 17, 2012
  16. Michael Wrenn

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    So, considering the verses I quoted, especially Jeremiah 7: 22,23, isn't there a contradiction in what Moses also directed about sacrifices? I believe the answer can be found in what Jesus said in Matthew 19:8 -- "He said to them, For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so."

    I believe there is good evidence that the sacrifices were allowed because of the hardness of heart of the people, but in the beginning it was not so, as evidenced in Jeremiah 7:22.23.

    "The commandment to offer sacrifices was given under a similar permission. It was not desired from the beginning but Moses allowed them to offer many sacrifices because of the hardness of their hearts. It was a practice arising in darkest antiquity and the Israelites were not inclined to discontinue such a time honored custom.

    This presupposes that the offering of sacrifices was already an established custom among the people of Israel, one they continually adhered to due to their hardness of heart. Is there biblical evidence of this?

    Yes; before the Israelites left Egypt, we find the practice among them:

    Exod.10

    [24] Then Pharaoh called Moses, and said, "Go, serve the LORD; your children also may go with you; only let your flocks and your herds remain behind."
    [25] But Moses said, "You must also let us have sacrifices and burnt offerings, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.

    We can conclude that the offering of sacrifices and burnt offerings to God was nothing new to the people who left Egypt, or to Moses. It can, in fact, be traced all the way back to their patriarch, Abraham, who was proceeding to make a living human sacrifice of his son, Isaac, when God called him and made a covenant with him. It was an established part of their pre Moses religion. God, through Moses, allowed them to maintain it due to the hardness of their hearts.

    Psalm 95

    [7] For he is our God,
    and we are the people of his pasture,
    and the sheep of his hand.
    O that today you would hearken to his voice!
    [8] Harden not your hearts, as at Mer'ibah,
    as on the day at Massah in the wilderness,
    [9] when your fathers tested me,
    and put me to the proof, though they had seen my work.
    [10] For forty years I loathed that generation
    and said, "They are a people who err in heart,
    and they do not regard my ways."
    [11] Therefore I swore in my anger
    that they should not enter my rest.

    Can there be any clearer diagnosis of the heart condition of the Israelites during the entire forty years they spent in the wilderness, when Moses gave them all that legislation regarding the sacrifices? Not divorce only, not only the sacrificial practices also, but many things Moses permitted those hard hearted ones in the wilderness."


    But in the beginning, it was not required or desired by God.

    For those who think it was, if Jesus had not come, would you be willing to resort to cutting animals' throats because you believe that God would not forgive you otherwise?

    This all relates to what the incarnation, life, work, ministry, atonement, and resurrection of Jesus accomplished and means. Jesus died a most heinous death on the cross, but His death was not a punishment in our place to appease an angry and vengeful God; God did not require such punishment or inflict it on His Son. The death of Jesus reconciles us to God, defeated the devil, death, and hell, shows us God's love and reveals His mercy, and by the resurrection of Jesus, we are assured of our own resurrection.
     
  17. The Biblicist

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    Michael, who gave the instructions found in the book of Leviticus? God or man? When the prophets repeately introduced their messages as "Thus the saith the Lord" were they lying?

    The contradiction is between your two ears as God is not the author of confusion but that is exactly what you are charging God to be as it is God that plainly gave the Levitical instructions and it is God that spoke through the prophets. Both are harmonized in the book of Hebrews (Heb. 1:1; 8-10).
     
  18. The Biblicist

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    Yes, there is a contradiction but not between what God established in Leviticus and not with God's prophets and their messages.

    The contradiction is with ISRAEL'S MALPRACTICE of Leviticus and with what God's Word in Leviticus.

    Israel went through the motions of obedience legalistically while their heart was not in their obedience. God rejected this legalistic form of obedience to the Levitical laws..

    The same is true in regard to marriage and divorce. Israel's malpractice of permission of divorce. Sin entered into the equation and distorted God's original intent for marriage. God never intended divorce and hates divorce, yet with the inclusion of sin divorce was permitted as a lessor of two evils; physical and mental harm to the other party (Deut. 24:1-4). Hence, divorce was permitted but the issue revolved around what was acceptable divorce for remarriage.


    Christ was SLAIN from the foundation of the world and it refers to the type found in sacrifices. Read Hebrews 10:1-10 to see the perfect consistency between the PRIESTLY SACRIFICE of Christ with Old Testament sacrifices as a SHADOW of the cross.

    You are blinded by your false doctrines and cannot see the obvious in so much that your responses make God to be the author of Confusion as it was God Himself that established the Levitical offerings as well as the Prophetic office. The prophets preached the sacrifices as the GOSPEL TYPE (Acts
    10:43). The only contradiction was between Israel's malpractice of the sacrifices but NOT between God's intent and institution of them as Hebrews 8-10 clearly and explicitly states in words that cannot be called a "contradiction" but perfect consistency and harmony with the gospel of Jesus Christ.
     
  19. OldRegular

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    I do not deny the truth of Scripture; you do!
     
  20. Michael Wrenn

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    Prove it, or hold your tongue. You cannot prove it because you do not know my heart.
     
    #20 Michael Wrenn, Oct 18, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 18, 2012
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