Conform To The World

1. We preach the Word because God told us to and as a response to his grace to us. At least, this is why I do. Am I assuming too much when I say we?

2. God will work in any manner he wishes. I preach the Word in the native tongue of my land. My message, however, does not accomodate some post modern distortion of our understanding of God in order to make the lost feel better about their sin and not see their hopeless estate without God as McLaren and others would like for us to do. The Gospel still begins with the bad news, no matter what language you speak. The Gospel is not a marketing ploy. It is the power of God to save the lost.

Joseph Botwinick

 

The problem that I see is this: When our focus shifts from the message to the marketing of the message, eventually, it ends up with the message changing to accomodate the will of the lost. I don't like to hear about sin, so we don't talk about that. Instead we talk about God's plan for our life. We don't like to hear about God's judgment, so we don't talk about that. Instead, we talk about the love of God. You can't have God's plan for your life without knowing about your hopeless estate as a totally depraved sinner, at emnity with God. You can't have the grace of God without the judgment of God. Just look at some of the responses earlier in this thread that advise us not to mention how people are sinners to the sinners.

Something I read in your above quote also brought a question to my mind:

You talk about how Jesus changed his method to accomodate the sinner so he might better reach them. I am curious to know why Jesus didn't approach the lost pharisees differently than he did. Or, is it possible that he had no intention of reaching them. Wouldn't a better approach have been to say nice things about them and butter them up instead of calling them vipers? Did he just choose not to present the Gospel to them in a culturally relevant manner that they would have been more comfortable with?

Oh, and praise the Lord for saving your mother. To God alone be the glory, for it was him and him alone who saved your mother, and not some evangelist or system created by man.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Don't confuse "Culture" with "Message." Warren does not advocate changing the message. He's following scripture, which was quoted in the very first post. I think what a lot of people have done is intertwined the two, and made things part of the essential message that really don't have anything to do with it at all, and that's idolatry.

And then, there are those who have made Christianity into a dull, boring, lifeless religion with their traditions, and are jealous of others on whom God is truly blessing.

 

1. Is the doctrine of sin and God's judgment essential to understanding the Grace of God and Salvation? If not, then what is?

2. My faith is not dull or boring. Neither is it a three ring circus or an entertainment center. I am not jealous of Rick or anyone else, and I think you might be mistaking the world's view of success with God's Blessings.

Joseph Botwinick

 

My warning was just to SFIC, warning you wouldn't do any good.

We know we can count on you to call the gang banger a heritec and everything except a child of God... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

Why would you not tell the gang banger about his sin and how he is headed for Hell?

Would you call a lost person a child of God? Based on what Scripture? Does Scripture matter to you more than making your presentation culturally relevant?

Joseph Botwinick

 

What is Paul really getting at?

One thing I have learned from studying the New Testament is that it is full of generalities. "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world...", "Obstain from all appearance of evil", "be not conformed to the world." These are obvious for the mature believer and only mature believers "get it."
One may ask "what do these mean? How do they apply in *this* situation?" In reality, if the Holy Spirit indwells in us (which He does), we know what they mean, but we, in our fleshly mind want to ignore the Holy Spirit and have some man codify a check list for us to make life easier for us. This soothes our conscience by setting up a list of someone else's standards and lessens convictions.

For example, you may have heard a preacher preach a sermon on "Obstaining from all appearance of evil" where he usually interprets the verse with his own list of standards of what does and does not have an appearance of evil. One of his examples could be "If you need to make a turn, do not turn around in a bar's parking lot, because one of your friends may see you and think you are doing something wrong." This is a good guideline, but remeber that it is not Scripture but someone's standard.

Suppose you know that you are in the boon docks where no one you know will see you, and suddenly you have a conviction by the Holy Spirit to talk to that depressed drunk standing right outside the doors of the bar. You go up to him as a friend and talk to him. He poors out his sorrows to you, then invites you to come into the bar with him for a few beers. All of the sudden you remember a preacher telling you that a Christian has no business going inside of a bar. You stand there saying "Uh...", "I don't know", or "Sorry, I don't think I should go into a bar, I'm a Christian." These are not wrong answers, but may actually be correct for you. But, suppose your conscience told you that you should actually go in regardless of what the preacher said...

You enter the bar with him. He orders a beer and offers to buy you one. You have several options...
A. "Sure" (I would not recommend this choice)
B. "You do realize that drinking is a sin."
C. "Haven't you had enough?"
D. "You know, you really need to lay off the alchohol"
E. "No thanks, I don't drink" (better)
F. "No thanks" (best)

All are options and may be based on the maturity of the believer. If you were just saved and were sharing your faith to peers, your conscience may allow you to choose "A." If you are a preachy person, you may choose "B," "C," or "D." Most people will choose "E" or "F." I would choose "F" because it allows you to continue your goal without any unnecessary conflicts of interest. If your conscience does not bother you, you may actually order a water or rootbeer instead so as to let the person who wants to be kind to you show his kindness without frusterating him.

Once you and him sit down. You see him grab his keg of beer and get ready to gulp. You have two options.
A. Watch him drink
B. Put your hand to his cup and ask him if you could talk for a moment.

Either option is correct depending on what your conscience expects you to do. No he is ready to talk. You can either jump right into the Gospel, or conduct small talk. Realize that every person's personality is different.

I know the context of this verse is dealing with the Disciples amidst persecutors, but you could apply this idea to your situation. Be as wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove. There is no formula I can give you for this entire ordeal except for some advice. Look into his eyes, and try to figure out exactly what he needs to hear at the moment. If he is looking for an answer, give it to him in a cleaver manner. At the same time, be harmless as a dove. Do not offend him in any way. He does not need conflict if he really wants answers.

You may completely disagree with me on pulling off a scenario like this. I don't blame you. I would not be caught dead in a bar. Just remember that the Bible is full of generalities. If the Bible explained all the details it would be a massive volume that most people would be intimidated to read. The Holy Spirit is the unwritten rules of the Bible. The Holy Spirit uses different people in different ways to reach different people. Although my conscience would kill me right now if I tried to walk into a bar, I will not condemn a faithful witness who feels the need to walk in.

The whole deal is the heart of the individual. The is exactly what Paul is getting at when he says "I am become all things to all people." Whenever he ate, drank, or wore anything, he did it for the glory of God, not because it pleased his flesh. If Paul were living today, we might see him going places, eating things, or wearing clothes that may be criticised by our own pastors. I guarantee you that he did not consume things to satisfy his flesh, nor did he wear immodist or sloppy clothing. I guarantee you that he was able to dress in a fashion that would "blend in" without "going with the fad." Sometimes, if you are walking down a getto, you may be a more effective witness approaching people in a common t-shirt and jeans rather than a suit and tie. However, if you are in a rich neighborhood, you would rather wear a suit and tie to get people to feel that you are worth listening to.

 

What did Jesus do?

Read the Gospels. Read how Jesus talked to people. Did He say the same thing to everyone? How did He present the Gospel to... the woman at the well? to the rich, young ruler? ...to Nicodemus? ...to the Pharasees?

Try to think the way Jesus did. Look into their eyes. Figure out what they want to hear. Figure out what they need to hear. Answer their questions. Be cunning and clever. The Holy Spirit will give you the words to say. The Gospel will come out.

 

What is your goal?

Joseph Botwinick

 

If I actually ended up in a situation like this. My goal would be to present the Gospel to him without saying anything that would cause conflict of interest and ruin my chance. I would want to tell him what he really needs to hear before I tell him what he doesn't need to hear at the moment. Just like the woman caught in the act of fornication and the thief on the cross, the last thing this man who is drowned in his sorrows needs to hear is another person telling him to toss the bottle. They needed forgiveness from their Savior first, then the answers eventually came. Jesus did not scold the woman nor the thief, He forgave them. Once a sinner has tasted of the goodness of his Savior, the answers will come to them.

 

Because he and God already knows his sins. The ones I might have seen and certianly many that I have not seen. Also, acknowledging his sins is not my position in life as the Lord has made it plain he will do all the judging. My instructions were to witness so that's what I plan to do.

Now if the Lord gave me a robe and a gavel and told me to start judging then I'd take a page from your book and call him a heritec.. :laugh:

No, I would not call a lost person a child of God. I wouldn't call him a child of the Devil either. I suspect he knows who his Daddy is. He don't need me to tell him. My scriptoral support is the verse being discussed in this thread.

1 Cor. 9:20-23, "To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it."

 

You become whatever your conscience will allow you to become without doing it in a manner that apeases your flesh. The level of "conformation" depends upon the individual. God made everyone different. Different people need different standards to guard themselves, but everyone needs a heart for reaching out to people. That is the beauty of the Holy Spirit and the generics of Paul's idealology. If you let the Holy Spirit interpret this for you, you will "get it." If you expect a man to make a check list of interpretations for you to mindlessly follow without needing to take opportunities by faith, you may not "get it."
If you know to do good and do it not, to you it is sin. It is that simple. Your conscience tells you when something is right or wrong. Everyone's conscience is different. Everyone has different strengths, weaknesses, and maturity levels. Get along with all the bretheren, love all the bretheren. That's the beauty of Paul's simple teachings.

 

Excellent Man, excellent! :thumbsup: :thumbs: :thumbs:

 

We had a missionary to Khazicstan (I know I butchered the spelling) speak last week. He was talking about witnessing to Muslims. Invite them into your house and share a meal with them. He said that we would be amazed at the doors God would open and the questions they would ask after we'd shown hospitality. I want to be amazed! But I'm feeling isolated right now. I'm an employee at the same church I attend on Sundays. So, I'm praying that God will place a Muslim family in the path of Ron or me so we can show hospitality and wait on God to work.

 

This is the hardest thing a Christian has to do.
It is almost impossible to separate the message from the culture we have experienced.
But we must work to do it, because the message is relevant to all cultures.

But through our pride, we try to impose our culture on others before we give them the message. IOWS we think our way of doing church is the only right way. This is either ignorance or pride.

That is why cross-cultural mission trips are great. You are exposed to other worldviews of doing church.

You can go to the country Bitsy tried to spell (I'll not even attempt it) and if you are not open to doing church differently than what you are used to, you will be offended.

I thank God that He is big enough to be worshipped in any culture, as long as they have the message right.

 

Now we're having what I believe is a Christian duscussion thanks to Bitsy and Tiny... :laugh:

Bitsy, I think that advice works for most cultures so don't hesitate if God sends you other than Muslim's. It is easier to witness to people of other faiths than to those who have no faith. I know God gave each of us a measure of faith but I think some of us burried it so we can return it at the second comiing.

 

I agree LeBuick -- about showing hospitality to most people groups/cultures. Even born and bred Americans today are surprised to be invited into someone's home. The thing is that we have to approach and be approachable. How do we do that? We are kind and loving and hospitable. We live the gospel and when the time is right we tell the gospel. I guess my point is that I don't want to be isolated behind my church doors. I want to live in the community so that I know the community. How else will the lost be reached?

 

There was a book out years ago from the old CU football coach who was a Christian. I think his name was McCarthy or something like that. The book was titled Chucrh without Walls and addressed this same area of the Church.