confused about Calvin (Page 21) Round two

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by johnp., Feb 3, 2006.

  1. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Whose turn is it?

    john.
     
  2. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Scott went last and needs replying to. Rebutting is not in order.

    john.
     
  3. Me4Him

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    As I've said, Calvin's doctrine isn't what we see in the "Real World".

    (Gratuitous personal attack elminated.)

    [ February 06, 2006, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: rsr ]
     
  4. johnp.

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    Hello Me4Him.

    By an erroneous opinion prevailing in all ages, an opinion almost universally prevailing in our own day, viz., that all things happen fortuitously, the true doctrine of Providence has not only been obscured, but almost buried. If one falls among robbers, or ravenous beasts; if a sudden gust of wind at sea causes shipwreck; if one is struck down by the fall of a house or a tree; if another, when wandering through desert paths, meets with deliverance; or, after being tossed by the waves, arrives in port, and makes some wondrous hair-breadth escape from death - all these occurrences, prosperous as well as adverse, carnal sense will attribute to fortune. But whose has learned from the mouth of Christ that all the hairs of his head are numbered, (Matth. 10: 30,) will look farther for the cause, and hold that all events whatsoever are governed by the secret counsel of God. With regard to inanimate objects again we must hold that though each is possessed of its peculiar properties, yet all of them exert their force only in so far as directed by the immediate hand of God. (John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion Book Book I Chapter 16. http://www.mbrem.com/calvinism/calprov.htm )

    john.

    (Edited to remove reference to personal attack.)

    [ February 06, 2006, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: rsr ]
     
  5. OldRegular

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    First we need to knock off this BUNK about Calvin's doctrine of the Sovereignty of God in Salvation . It is not Calvin's doctrine it is the Biblical Doctrine. Calvin just happened to interpret it correctly amid some of his erroneous doctrine.

    Your problem Me4Him is that you can't distinguish between what the you call the "Real World", the "natural world" and the Spiritual World, the Real World of God.

    When you talk about "free will to believe, or not believe THINGS THEY HEAR" you are talking about the "natural man". However, Scripture clearly teaches the state of the "natural man". God through the Apostle Paul tells us:

    1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    Romans 3:10-12
    10. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
    11. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
    12. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


    God through the Prophet Jeremiah tells us:

    Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

    (Edited to remove reference to personal attack.)

    [ February 06, 2006, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: rsr ]
     
  6. Me4Him

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    Am I suppose to believe this from a person who believes God lied to Israel, and there will never be a "Messiah" ruling over the Jews in "Jerusalem"???? (MK)

    I knew your doctrine was "fouled up" on the MK, but, now you're fouled up on this a too, SHEEEE.

    I'm still waiting for an answer of how a person can be saved and "NOT" know how it happened.

    If you met some "Famous Person", I'm sure you would remember the time/place/how you came to meet that person,

    so how is it a person can meet "GOD" and "NOT" remember the time/place/how that event came above????

    The only way a person can describe "being saved" is the "only way" that's described in scripture, and "predestination" has an entirely different meaning than "WHOSOEVER WILL".

    So let me hear/read some "personal testimonies" of how/why you were saved, we'll see if they match up with scripture.

    Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent?

    [ February 06, 2006, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: rsr ]
     
  7. reformedbeliever

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    Me4Him. Why do you attack people personally? Your replies are not what I'd expect from a Christian to another Christian. Why don't you just answer Scott's questions that he has so patiently asked you to answer. Scott and many others have been very patient with you and have not attacked you. It seems that when you do not have an answer you attack them or resort to childish behavior. I do not reply to many of the threads in the Baptist board, but enjoy learning and reading in them. You have not taught me much of anything in what you have presented. I hope you will be thoughtful in your replies in the future. God bless you.
     
  8. johnp.

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    Am I suppose to believe this.... Believe what Me4Him? 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
    Are you supposed to believe that?

    Blasphemy is back? You say SHEEEE? sus is that? Might be I err but I thought you should know how it came across.

    How does a two cell human know anything? Ex 20:6 ...I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

    The Children of God are promised their Children and their Children's Children. The Children's Children are saved after being conceived. That's why Calvin believed in infant baptism. Such a clever bloke he is.

    I like a man with a sense of humour. :cool: You can hold your breath.

    I wasn't a child of a Christian and I met Him along the way but as for those I met before I was born but after I was concieved I do not remember ask John the baptist when you meet him as he might remember meeting Christ while he was in his mum's belly. When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. Luke 1:38. Saved in the womb was John. Free will was of course sought by God. :cool:

    Did my explanation explain it to you?

    Wrong ain't yer? When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. Luke 1:38.

    I prayed to a God I did not believe in and He met me in my prayer. I had an overwhelming experience that I sought again for ages before I came to know it is not about feeling but it's about the word of God.
    I parroted some words of a pastor asking Jesus to forgive my sins and to be with me forever and so He was with me. Do I pass?

    It talks of the ordained process whereby Christ the Shepherd calls the Sheep. It is His way, He said: My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. John 10:26.

    There is no choice you see? We will hear His voice. No maybes or buts.

    john.

    [ February 06, 2006, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: rsr ]
     
  9. rsr

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    OK, guys. Clean up your act. Don't make personal attacks and please, please do not quote them again and again.

    rsr
     
  10. Me4Him

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    Asking "Hard questions" is an "Attack"???

    Would it be an "attack" to tell a "Muslim" they are going to hell except they be "Born again"???

    This is the "Debate forum", if ya can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

    I think if you'll check, Scott, John and I have run this forum 21 pages, or more.

    Maybe you just haven't got into the "Swing of things".

    As far me teaching you, I've consistantly referred people to listen to the "Holy Ghost", it bears witness to "truth" and "lies",

    if "ANYONE" doesn't know the difference between the two, it's their fault, not mine.

    Now contribute something we can "Debate". :D [​IMG]
     
  11. Me4Him

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    The Jews also hear his voice, In person, so "WHY" wasn't they saved, they rejected him, he didn't reject them, he offer to gather them under his wings, "THEY WOULDN'T".

    "IF" it was "predestinate" for the Jew to reject Jesus, then "Jesus lied" when he offered, they didn't reject him of their "FREE WILL" but of "predestination" and "GOD'S WILL".

    Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    Calvins puts the blame on God's "Sovereign will" for the Jews rejecting Jesus, not the "Free will" of the Jews to "CHOSE".

    When you were saved, were you "coerced" by God's "sovereign will" into being saved, or could you have rejected the offer???
     
  12. Me4Him

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    People belong to all types of different groups, Democrats, Republican, Baptist, Catholic, Pentacostal, whatever.

    All have different/opposing "beliefs".

    A Democrat will "close" their ears to anything the Republican say, vote straight Democrat ticket, and the same is true for Republicans.

    The Baptist will condemn the Catholic beliefs, and the Pentacostal condemn both Baptist/Catholic.


    A "die hard democrat Christian" wouldn't vote for Jesus if he ran on the Republican party ticket, and neither would a Republican if he was on the Democrats ticket.

    Suppose Jesus attempted to tell the Baptist/Catholic/Pentacostal two were wrong, would they listen/believe him, Absolutely not, the Holy Ghost doesn't teach three different doctrines, so the fact is, "SOMEBODY" is refusing to listen.

    So the question must be asked and answered, "WHY" are there all these different beliefs and "WHY" are people so "DOGMATIC" in their beliefs??

    The answer is simple, People are "FREE" to "pick/chose" anything they want to believe, even if the facts don't support it.

    Once their choice is made, any doctrine that is "Contrary" to the doctrine of their "CHOSEN GROUP", is "Automatically", "WRONG".

    This is what happen between Jesus and the Jews, and it still happens today.

    The scripture say we must forsake Mother/Father/Sister/Brother if we're to follow Jesus and find the truth,

    but being dogmatic, people absolutely refuse to "FORSAKE" their "political parties", or "Denominational" beliefs to find the truth.

    There's "very few" who are willing to "FORSAKE" all they think they know, and become "Humble as a Child" for the "new things" the spirit can teach,

    the "Falling away" from Spiritual guidance, and leaning on their own understanding is very evident.
     
  13. Me4Him

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    John

    Blasphemy is back? You say SHEEEE? sus is that? Might be I err but I thought you should know how it came across.

    FYI, OldRegular and I have had considerable discussions about this on another thread, each knows where the other stands.

    I'm not here to "wipe noses, powder behinds", but to tell the truth, regardless if any like it or not, only "TRUTH" will stand, everything else "fails".
     
  14. johnp.

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    The word does not your feelings. Am I suppose to believe this.... Believe what Me4Him? 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
    Are you supposed to believe that?

    Answer the question.

    Blasphemy is back? You say SHEEEE? sus is that? Might be I err but I thought you should know how it came across.

    What you have discussed elsewhere is of no concern of mine. I see you do not pass on the conclusions reached but you know how this word would be received yet you choose to blaspheme why?

    No you are controlled by the King of creation.

    DT 29:2 Moses summoned all the Israelites and said to them:
    Your eyes have seen all that the LORD did in Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his officials and to all his land. 3 With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those miraculous signs and great wonders. 4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear. 5 During the forty years that I led you through the desert, your clothes did not wear out, nor did the sandals on your feet. 6 You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink. I did this so that you might know that I am the LORD your God.

    Answer required.

    john.
     
  15. Me4Him

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    1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    If you understood this verse you'd understand that this debates is between the "natural man" understanding of scripture and the "Spiritual understanding".

    Do you want to answer the question I ask Scott, where the "EIGHTH DAY" came from, God didn't create it.
     
  16. npetreley

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    This is a non-sequitur. It does not follow that if it was foreordained that the Jews would not receive him that it is a lie for Jesus to offer.

    Read Deuteronomy 29-30

    Here we have not only a covenant but a universal one. This applies not only to those standing there, but to others who will be born later.

    Now look at this fascinating mix of the command to choose with the foregone conclusion that they will choose wrongly.

    Witnesses AGAINST them? Why? Because He knows what they will choose. Yet He still offers the choice:

    God tells the people to make a choice, knowing the whole time what they're going to do. They're going to break their end of the oath and receive the curses instead of the blessings.

    So was it a lie for God to offer the blessings in the oath, knowing full well that they weren't going to fulfill their part of the covenent either then, or in the future? Heck, God even told them it was easy to stick to their part of the bargain, knowing full well they would not do it!

    If it was easy, then why didn't they do it?

    According to your reasoning, God was lying to them, because He was making an offer and covenant knowing full well that they could not comply because God Himself had not yet given them a mind to understand, eyes to see, or ears to hear.

    Now look at the final outcome in Deuteronomy 30:

    How is it they "live"? The LORD circumcises their hearts and the hearts of their descendents so that they MAY love Him and live. What are we to make of this verse? That they have no way to love Him unless God first circumcises their hearts.

    So there you have a dual lesson in Deut 29-30. First, God DOES make offers and covenants knowing full well that we do not have the capability to live up to our part of the bargain. Second, the only way we can be rescued is if God FIRST circumcises our hearts, which enables us to make the RIGHT choice. We do not have the ability otherwise.

    [ February 07, 2006, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: npetreley ]
     
  17. Me4Him

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    You're the first to offer even a "reasonable explanation".

    Witnesses, Yes, a witnesses, "WHY" because "THEIR REJECTION" is "THEIR FAULT", it couldn't be "THEIR FAULT" if the rejection was due to God's "Sovereign will".

    I'e never argued against "Foreknowledge", only "Predestination".

    I don't think some knows the differences.

    "It is because this people abandoned the covenant of the LORD,

    Was it God's sovereign will for the people to abandon the covenant, or "THEIR CHOICE"??

    Calvin states that "WE" don't have a "CHOICE" to follow/not follow God, an "Irresistable call".

    God doesn't give "ANYTHING" unless you "FIRST" have "FAITH" to believe, the Spirit calls but if you refuse to answer/believe that "Call", BY YOUR FAITH, you get nothing else from God.


    And with the "foreknowledge" that "MANY" who are called will reject and only a "FEW" will believe.

    "IF" some are Predestine to hell why does God "waste his time" making calls to those he "KNOWS" in advance will reject the call,

    For a "WITNESSES", that they "WERE OFFERED" and refused.

    Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations;

    Many are called, few chosen.

    Let me explain something that is very clear in scripture,

    "NO MAN" has "EVER" been saved, except "THEY CHOSE" to answer the call of the spirit BY FAITH.

    Calvin removes "OUR" Faith from the plan of salvation, stating that only those who receive an "Irresistable call" from God can/will answer,

    implying that the spirit's call to those who reject the call, IS NOT as "irresistable", or as "Strong" as to those saved.

    This of course removes "OUR FAITH" as the reason God saved, and places the blame on God for not giving the unsaved as strong an irresistable call as the saved.

    That's "predestination" in a "nutshell".

    God's will was for none to perish, and Jesus didn't come to condemn the world and died for the sins of the whole world, so the whole world "MIGHT BE" saved, but it isn't,

    explain predestination in that context.
     
  18. Scott J

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    I don't recall that question but I am not interested in answering any more of your often rhetorical questions until you answer my substanitive questions.

    If you were using questions to prompt thought or debate then that would be fine. You ask. I answer. I ask. You answer. That is good, healthy, honest debate.

    But you don't answer... instead you fire questions back as a means of evasion. You don't want to answer questions that undermine your position. Up to a significant point, I answered each question I recognized you posing. When you have a view that is consistent with God, the Bible, and itself... you can do that. You however must evade because your view contradicts the Bible and the character of God it declares.
     
  19. Scott J

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    Why do they "choose"? Why do some choose right while others choose wrong?

    Are those who choose correctly better than those who don't?

    Exactly what is it that motivates them... that actually causes everything thing else to happen?
     
  20. Me4Him

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    Why do they "choose"? Why do some choose right while others choose wrong?

    Are those who choose correctly better than those who don't?

    Exactly what is it that motivates them... that actually causes everything thing else to happen?
    </font>[/QUOTE]THEIR CHOICE TO BELIEVE, BY FAITH

    Nothing else happens until you get "PAST" this stage.
     

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