Congruent Election

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Truth Seeker, May 15, 2016.

  1. Truth Seeker

    Truth Seeker
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2007
    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    1
    Congruent Election though similar to conditional election, has a nuanced difference. This view holds that since God dwells in eternity, he sees all things eternally now. He sees all peoples and events, past present and future, as if it was all right now. In this sense, God sees all believers all at the same time, and he sovereignly chooses them from his eternal-now-perspective. But, because men dwell in time, and make free choices, they also choose to believe in Christ from their perspective. In this way, from one side, God unconditionally chooses us in eternity, but we also conditionally choose God in time — thus, election is congruent. Norman Geisler’s Chosen But Free and Richard Land President of SES espouses this view.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  2. Luke2427

    Luke2427
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    8
    It is an interesting theory, but it still doesn't change the fact that logically, God decides first and that man decides what he decides only because God already decided what he'd decide.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 2
  3. InTheLight

    InTheLight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    16,256
    Likes Received:
    619
    This is the "Robot" branch of Calvinism.

    It also makes God the author of evil. After all, if God already decided what Eve would decide, then God caused Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,560
    Likes Received:
    274
    Perhaps the way he worded it sounds that way, but the point is God's will, His grace, i.e., 'the heart change', is irresistible.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  5. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    18,943
    Likes Received:
    96
    Like an Almond Hershey Bar. :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  6. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Messages:
    2,224
    Likes Received:
    986
    Bring back some of those buttons. :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Luke2427

    Luke2427
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    8
    It doesn't make God the author of evil.

    But I'd challenge you to show how congruent election resolves this problem.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  8. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    2,781
    Likes Received:
    493
    Correct.

    He can't.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  9. InTheLight

    InTheLight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    16,256
    Likes Received:
    619
    I said your theology states GOD CAUSED Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit. You didn't deny that, you replied, "That doesn't make God the author of evil." Sorry, there is a disconnect in your logic.

    Why? Was I defending congruent election?
     
  10. Luke2427

    Luke2427
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    8
    What is the disconnect?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. InTheLight

    InTheLight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    16,256
    Likes Received:
    619
    You say:
    God caused Eve to eat the fruit.
    Eating the fruit would give A&E the knowledge of good and evil.
    A&E are now fallen humans.

    But then you say:
    God didn't create evil.

    You're not making sense.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  12. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    2,781
    Likes Received:
    493
    Well, it as God who placed that Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and also gave that Serpent access unto them to tempt them. If God truly desired them to remain sinless, He would have decided to not place that Tree there to begin with. Yet, they are responsible for their actions. God sternly warned Adam, yet he chose to disobey God and we reaped those benefits.

    Also, look at this...

    In Isaiah, Isaiah prophecies that Ariel will be destroyed by writing...

    Woe to you, Ariel, Ariel, the city where David settled! Add year to year and let your cycle of festivals go on. Yet I will besiege Ariel; she will mourn and lament, she will be to me like an altar hearth. I will encamp against you on all sides; I will encircle you with towers and set up my siege works against you. Brought low, you will speak from the ground; your speech will mumble out of the dust. Your voice will come ghostlike from the earth; out of the dust your speech will whisper. But your many enemies will become like fine dust, the ruthless hordes like blown chaff. Suddenly, in an instant, the Lord Almighty will come with thunder and earthquake and great noise, with windstorm and tempest and flames of a devouring fire. Then the hordes of all the nations that fight against Ariel, that attack her and her fortress and besiege her, will be as it is with a dream, with a vision in the night— as when a hungry person dreams of eating, but awakens hungry still; as when a thirsty person dreams of drinking, but awakens faint and thirsty still. So will it be with the hordes of all the nations that fight against Mount Zion.[/I][Isaiah 29:1-8]

    Here you can see where God has brought judgment upon Ariel and He will orchestrate it so that it will be besieged. Yet, He will then turn and destroy them that attacked Ariel.

    God sent a judgment upon His ppl and used the reprobates to accomplish His will. Yet, they who attacked Ariel are still responsible for their wicked deeds.

    It is like with Adolph Hitler. He was a judgment sent upon the Jews as they were rejecting their Mesiah, Christ. Yet, at the same time, Hitler will be held responsible for the wicked deeds he did.
     
  13. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    The focus seems to be on Adam and Eve eating of the forbidden fruit... Shouldn't the focus be more on the remedy which was already in place before they took one bite?... Btw congruent election and Sovereign Grace according to scripture contradict each other... Brother Glen

    Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    2,781
    Likes Received:
    493
    But I was addressing Brother ITL's resp0nse. He said our view makes God the Author of sin. I call that claim foolish. We do not claim that ideology. God placed the Tree in the Garden, gave the Serpent entrance so that His plan would come to fruition. He did not set back and just watch to see what happened, He has ordained all that comes to pass.

    He put Pharaoh in his place just to demonstrate His power through him. He had Ariel besieged by the reprobates and then throttled the reprobates for doing what they freely chose to do.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,560
    Likes Received:
    274
    "In the arms of my dear Savior, O there are ten thousand charms."
    2:15

    1 Come ye sinners, poor and needy,
    Weak and wounded, sick and sore;
    Jesus ready stands to save you,
    Full of pity, love, and pow'r.

    I will arise and go to Jesus,
    He will embrace me in His arms;
    In the arms of my dear Savior,
    O there are ten thousand charms.

    2 Come, ye thirsty, come and welcome,
    God's free bounty glorify;
    True belief and true repentance,
    Ev'ry grace that brings you nigh.

    I will arise and go to Jesus,
    He will embrace me in His arms;
    In the arms of my dear Savior,
    O there are ten thousand charms.

    3 Come ye weary, heavy laden,
    Lost and ruined by the fall;
    If you tarry till you're better,
    You will never come at all.

    I will arise and go to Jesus,
    He will embrace me in His arms;
    In the arms of my dear Savior,
    O there are ten thousand charms.
     
    #15 kyredneck, May 18, 2016
    Last edited: May 18, 2016
  16. Luke2427

    Luke2427
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    8
    It does make sense but the issue is very complex. You'll have to understand evil as privation. God did not create evil because evil is not a created thing. It is not a thing. It is the absence of a thing. This does not mean it is not real. Cold is real but it is not a thing- not really. It is actually on the absence of heat. Darkness is not a thing. It is the absence of light. Hunger is not a thing. It is the absence of nourishment. Evil is not a thing. It is the absence of good. You can no more create evil than you can create darkness. You don't create darkness. You simply remove from a place the light and darkness is the result.

    St. Augustine championed this explanation:

    So did God create evil? No. In order for something to have been created, it must actually exist. Evil, like darkness, does not really exist. It has no weight, occupies no space, is not susceptible to time. You cannot taste it, smell it, see it, feel it or touch it. You cannot examine it under a microscope. It is not a form a energy. It is not one of the transcendent ideals like love and truth. How do you categorize it then?
    There is only one way. It is not something. It is, literally, nothing. It is the absence of something.

    The real question, then, is did God will it to come to pass. Did God will that there should be a hole in goodness in this world?

    The answer is yes.

    God always intended for evil to "exist" (by "exist" we mean, in the same sense that darkness "exists'- as a hole in something, as a nothing).

    In this sense, God did create "evil" (though not in reality). I told you that this was complex.
    Isaiah 45:7
    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

    Now, that does not mean that God loves evil. He hates it. But he can hate a thing and will for it to exist because he intends for that thing to bring about something that is ultimately good. It may be immediately evil, but it will bring about ultimate good.

    Jonathan Edwards put it this way:

    So why, then, did God will that evil be?

    I cannot improve upon the words of Jonathan Edwards:
    Here Edwards shows that God's glory is made more clearly visible by the "existence" of evil. Like a black velvet cloth as a backdrop makes the brilliance of a diamond that much brighter to our eyes, so evil serves to make God's attributes which are opposite evil shine much more brightly in our eyes.

    Because evil "exists," grace exists.

    Because evil "exists," we can better see what it means to love (for without evil, sacrifice cannot be [greater love has no man than this than a man lay down his life for his friends]).

    In conclusion, champions of Christian orthodoxy, like the Westminster divines, have it right when they say that God did not, technically, create evil. It truly is heresy to say that if by it is meant a certain thing. But God DID will that evil be- not because he loves evil, he hates it. But because he uses it to reveal more of himself to us. He is even more glorious in our eyes as we behold his attributes against the temporary backdrop of evil.
     
  17. InTheLight

    InTheLight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    16,256
    Likes Received:
    619
    I understand.
    "It's a mystery".

    God created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
    God created Adam and Eve.
    God created the rule, "thou shall not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."
    God created the consequence for breaking the rule, "you shall surely die."

    You say: God caused Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit.
    Then you say: God didn't create evil.

    If someone creates all the conditions for something to happen and then causes it to happen, they own it!

    Yet when we live in the new Heaven and the new Earth, there will be no more death, sorrow, pain, or tears. There will be no evil here. And this will be the most glorious place EVER. So, I don't buy your contention that evil must exist to make God more glorious. He can handle that without our pathetic contribution of evil.
     
  18. Luke2427

    Luke2427
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    8
    You ignored too much of my post for us to have a meaningful conversation.

    I'll only say that heaven will be filled with the REDEEMED. That is one of the main things heaven's occupants will praise God for forevermore.

    There is no redemption if there never was any sin.
     
  19. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    18,943
    Likes Received:
    96
    BEAUTIFUL.....Thank you! :)
     
  20. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    Well the way I understand it God knew Adam would sin (both of them together) but he didn't cause them to sin or was the Author of their sin... ITL is in error and the book of James says so and scripture corrects this error... Brother Glen

    James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

    1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

    1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1

Share This Page

Loading...