Consider the Potters Pots

Um - no. The details in the post above indicate an issue of justice in this case "lying" vs "telling the truth".

God COULD have said "I AM ARBITRARY and BIASED and so I select out the FEW of MAtt 7 to go to heaven not the many -- I am just funny that way" in Rom 2:11 INSTEAD of saying "I AM NOT partial". And IF He had done THAT -- then we could be having a "God is not fair" debate.

But that did not happen - though I think sometimes Calvinists like to imagine that it did.

God COULD have said "God so loved the FEW of Matt 7 that He GAVE..." instead of saying "God so loved the WORLD that He gave". - and THEN we could be having a "God is not fair debate". But that did not happen.

God COULD have said "I stand at the door of just a FEW and knock then I bust down the door for those select few and turn them into Christians" in Rev 3 INSTEAD of saying "I stand at the door and knock IF ANYONE hears AND OPENS the DOOR I WILL come in and fellowship with them and they with Me" Rev 3.

And IF that had happened - THEN we could be having a "God is not fair" debate. But that did not happen.

See? - the point above remains.

That certainly would be a calvinist defnition for it.

But Arminians prefer to think of it as GOD's saving Gospel that goes out to the entire world in a free will system THAT He sovereignly maintains and sustains.

Just accepting it as it is - seems to work better.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Show me where in Scripture and I'll believe you. Show me where in Scripture that salvation is based on a free-will system sovereignly foreordained by God.


On the other things above, I refuse to answer any of those objections you use all the time until you state them in thier proper context. Read John 3 again, read the context, then explain to me what verse 16 is saying.

It almost screams the exact opposite of how you interpret it.

In the past theologians have concentrated on the Arminian treatment of "the world" which is just confusing the issue. In all actuality, it's truly explained in verses before 16.


Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

 

Are you quoting me or "you"??

Did you need me to quote Rev 3 to you "again" or is it John 1 "to as many as received Him - to THEM he gave" or was it Romans 10 that you wanted me to quote to you.. or is it 2 Cor "We BEG you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God" that you needed.

Honestly - there are so many and your responses are so vague when dodging the points raised.

Are you even being serious as in an actual discussion when the hard questions are put to your assumptions? It works best when you respond with actual substance to the points raised.

Enough said.

Thank you for sharing.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Pick one and start. John 3:16 or whichever. The point is you can quote any verse you want to, it's just going to take a while for me answer it. I'm going to try to be as concise as I can, so maybe we can all understand a little more.


I don't think God created a free-will system, I don't see it in Scripture.
Pick a verse to debate or prove the free will system to me.


Either way.


Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

 

Fine - John 1 seems like a good place to start and since Rev 3 is also the same writer - might as well keep going with that writer.

Then we can go to Job 1 and 2 along with Dan 7 to SEE just how "objective" auditable and verifiable God's "non-biased" judgment is -

So now - starting with John.

John 1
7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe[/b] through him.
8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9 There was the true [b]Light which, coming into the WORLD, enlightens every man.



Global context: "The LIGHT OF MEN" unqualified (as in – “mankind”).

The intended purpose is that ALL should believe – unqualified ALL, no limit!

"Light shines in DARKNESS" - the entire world is said to be in darkness not just the jews.
"so that ALL might believe through Him" Unqualified - the message of John in the Gospels has gone to all the WORLD.

John 1
7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe[/b] through him.
8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9 There was the true [b]Light which, coming into the WORLD, enlightens every man.

This reminds us of Romans 1 where we are told that even the pagans in open rebellion against Christ are “without excuse” for His invisible attributes have been “clearly SEEN through those things that have been made”

And instead of “pointless sight” we in fact see the work of God for ALL the World (every man as John says here) in John 16 “The Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment” so that the invisible attributes of God are seen AND the heart is convicted as God “Draws ALL” unto Him. For “God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself” 2Cor 6. And no wonder for “God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance” 2Peter 3

The point being that John’s position here is very much consistent with all of scripture on God working at the level of the entire WORLD.

John 1
10 He was [b]in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.[/b]
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,



Notice that it is the WORLD that is made and the WORLD that rejects Christ and to that WORLD Christ comes to “enlighten every man”.

The action and consequence sequence seen in vs 12 “To THOSE that BELIEVE he gave the right to BECOME” is the same as we see John using in Rev 3
“If anyone hears AND OPENS the door then I WILL come in” Rev 3

It is the same action-result sequence we see Paul using in Romans 10

Romans 10
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 for the scripture says, “whoever believes in him will not be disappointed.”


Salvation comes to the one who confesses and believes. Then we go on to follow in the works of obedience – including water Baptism


In Rom 10 the sequence is the expected Arminian sequence.
#1. Believe in Christ after hearing the Gospel as you are being DRAWN to God
#2. This is a step toward God in righteousness
#3. Confess that you now believe and you will be “born-again” forgiven and saved!

 

I'll start from the end and go to the beginning, just for kicks.

Now from Ephesians 2 we know that it is by grace we are saved through faith, and this not from ourselves, it's a gift from God. We also see in Romans 1 that the just shall live by faith.

Faith is a gift from God. This fits what Jesus told Nicodemus in John's Gospel chapter 3. Jesus was not telling Nicodemus what he had to "do" to be saved. He states what must happen for someone to see the kingdom of God. He said you must be born again of the Spirit, then He likens it to the wind blowing.

In Jesus' model, one is born again of the Spirit before making any steps toward God, which is very different from the expected Arminian sequence of hearing then doing then being born again. Jesus' model is born again, hearing and then doing. That would also fit the parable of the seed sower. The sower (evangelist if you like) spreads the seed (the Gospel) on the path (which Satan steals away), on the rocky ground with good initial results, but has no root so he doesn't long because of persecution, and falls away. Also it's spread among thorns, which is a man who hears the word, but worries of life and wealth choke it and make it unfruitful.

Only when the seed falls on good soil (he hears AND understands) does it bear any fruit. This represents one who is born again of the Spirit. God makes the soil good, then the word is received and bears fruit, poroducing a crop yielding much more than what was sown.

This explains why the other three places the seed fell bore no fruit, they had not been born again, that did not haves ears that hear or hearts that understand.

Before He even explains the parable, the disciples ask him why he speaks in parables, and He said,

From the ESV:
Mat 13:11 And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
Mat 13:12For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
Mat 13:13This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
Mat 13:14Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:"'You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.
Mat 13:15For this people's heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.'
Mat 13:16But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear.
Mat 13:17Truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.


Blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear.

Not "you are blessed because you see and hear" but , in effect, "you see and hear because you are blessed."

I'm going to all this trouble to point out that a man CANNOT respond with any "righteousness" towards God without God first tilling the soil , so to speak.Read and understand: a man CANNOT believe savingly until the Holy Spirit enables him to do so.

Paul already exhaustively explains this in the preceding chapters of Romans.

It would be much simpler for everyone to realize that a man cannot be saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone according to the Arminian model. Man has to do something to help God save him. That's the gist of it.

The biblical model is "You are saved by grace through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is a gift from God."

It all ties together.


Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

P.S. I'm not going to edit my post in any way other than what I'm typing right now. It sure is a mess, but I think I made my point enough. Bear with the bad typing please.

 

Right, so the Light enlightens the world, the Gospel is going to all the world so that all might believe. I understand that and believe it. But not all of the world believes. That is the problem with Arminianism. They blame this on mankind's so-called "free will". But belief in the Gospel is God's gift to give. The Holy Spirit, likened to the blowing wind going wherever He pleases, must change the heart of a person before the Gospel can be believed. So says Christ in John 3.

Without delving into any commentaries, enlightening every man, in that context, would seem to be speaking of the conscience. Now I'm not 100% sure, but it would tie in with Romans 1, about the world having no excuse for their depravity, because thier consciences make it plain to them that what they're doing is wrong.

Now, I know it's no terribly concise, but I'm going from memory and an NIV Bible on 4 or so hours of sleep from last night.

I would say those verses have nothing to do with the atonement, it's merely saying that mankind in general knows of God because God has made it plain with what He made (creation, conscience, etc...). That's tying John 1 and Romans 1.

Soli Deo GLoria,
Dustin


P.S. If it is not clear enough, I'll clarify it as the Lord allows. Please bear with me, sleeplessness takes a heavy tole.

 

I like those points - but why not respond to the point raised regarding the free will system God has created instead of simply pointinng out that salvation is a gift.

(Something we already agree on)???

Shall I repost the points and wait futher for an answer to them?

Recall that you take this focus on Eph 2 when the point is raised regarding Romans 10 emphasizing the same "Action-result" sequence we see in John 1

In Christ,

Bob

 

My argument from John 1 was to respond to your point about the "Free will" system where man chooses to accept salvation and then is saved - I was not also addressing the atonement.

Recall that it starts like this ---

Then bob said

Shall I repost the points again?

In Christ,

Bob

 

John 1 seems like a good place to start and since Rev 3 is also the same writer - might as well keep going with that writer.

Then we can go to Job 1 and 2 along with Dan 7 to SEE just how "objective" auditable and verifiable God's "non-biased" judgment is -

So now - starting with John.

John 1
7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe[/b] through him.
8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9 There was the true [b]Light which, coming into the WORLD, enlightens every man.



Global context: "The LIGHT OF MEN" unqualified (as in – “mankind”).

The intended purpose is that ALL should believe – unqualified ALL, no limit!

"Light shines in DARKNESS" - the entire world is said to be in darkness not just the jews.
"so that ALL might believe through Him" Unqualified - the message of John in the Gospels has gone to all the WORLD.

John 1
7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe[/b] through him.
8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9 There was the true [b]Light which, coming into the WORLD, enlightens every man.

This reminds us of Romans 1 where we are told that even the pagans in open rebellion against Christ are “without excuse” for His invisible attributes have been “clearly SEEN through those things that have been made”

And instead of “pointless sight” we in fact see the work of God for ALL the World (every man as John says here) in John 16 “The Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment” so that the invisible attributes of God are seen AND the heart is convicted as God “Draws ALL” unto Him. For “God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself” 2Cor 6. And no wonder for “God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance” 2Peter 3

The point being that John’s position here is very much consistent with all of scripture on God working at the level of the entire WORLD.

John 1
10 He was [b]in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.[/b]
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,



Notice that it is the WORLD that is made and the WORLD that rejects Christ and to that WORLD Christ comes to “enlighten every man”.

The action and consequence sequence seen in vs 12 “To THOSE that BELIEVE he gave the right to BECOME” is the same as we see John using in Rev 3
“If anyone hears AND OPENS the door then I WILL come in” Rev 3

It is the same action-result sequence we see Paul using in Romans 10

Romans 10
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 for the scripture says, “whoever believes in him will not be disappointed.”


Salvation comes to the one who confesses and believes. Then we go on to follow in the works of obedience – including water Baptism


In Rom 10 the sequence is the expected Arminian sequence.
#1. Believe in Christ after hearing the Gospel as you are being DRAWN to God
#2. This is a step toward God in righteousness
#3. Confess that you now believe and you will be “born-again” forgiven and saved!

 

#1. Christ comes into the same world that He made and "enlightens EVERY man".

#2. First case - "To those that received Him" - second case "to them He GAVE". We see a first second sequence explicitly stated.

#3. I point out that we see the same thing in Romans 10 using the "resulting in" language -

Romans 10
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 for the scripture says, “whoever believes in him will not be disappointed.”

So if all are ministered to - and if it is only after one chooses to RECEIVE (the act of the receiver) that they then are given the right to be called the sons of God ---

And if the RESULT of belief and confession is salvation - then the one believing and confessing must be the person that chooses to do it. (Since we have no Bible example of someone accepting salvation without knowing it)

Salvation comes to the one who confesses and believes. Then we go on to follow in the works of obedience – including water Baptism


In Rom 10 the sequence is the expected Arminian sequence.
#1. Believe in Christ after hearing the Gospel as you are being DRAWN to God
#2. This is a step toward God in righteousness
#3. Confess that you now believe and you will be “born-again” forgiven and saved!

In the post above I show what I think the Arminian text is saying - and I would certainly agree that not all would agree with me. But that aside I have a question for you - what about this point is not absolutely obvious in terms of the intent of the post and the point shown?

Suppose for example that what I "wanted" to say was

"To those that he selected out to become the children of God to THEM he sent His Spirit and caused them to receive His message".

Is it your argument that there is no way to say that?

In Christ,

Bob

 

HP:

"that indeed we do possess a free will."

GE:

Ja, and 'by the testimony of God', man has the will free to sin -- speaking of unregenerate man. But that is at the same time saying no unregenerate man has the will free 'God-ward'! For to receive from God the will free 'God-ward', is to be saved and freed from the will free to sin!
To insist unregenerate man has the will free 'God-ward', is to insist the lost need not be saved because they are saved.

I "we", are the saved, "indeed we possess free will" as that inheritance of being saved. Saying and admitting it, is saying and admitting the unsaved do not 'possess free will'.

 

HP:

"Conscience is simply the best source and the only source needed to establish clearly the truths of free will. A man that denies the evidence unmistakably testified to there, and claims to be a seeker of truth in regard to the issue of a free will, is simply deceived as to his intentions and without fail find will himself ensnared in a maelstrom of self-made confusion and misconstrued proof texts."

GE:

Imposing language!

Now you talk of 'conscience' -- "...."Conscience .... (the) only source .... to establish .... free will". Here's what the Word says of 'conscience' -- : "The heart ('conscience') is deceitful above all things."
You have accepted the source of deceitfulness to ".... to establish .... the truths of free will"; therefore you ever so much fail to reach 'the truths of free will".

 

HP and BR have a relaxed and self-flattering conversation going on here. One feels like treading on holy ground to intrude!

Concludes BR,

"In Rom 10 the sequence is the expected Arminian sequence.
#1. Believe in Christ after hearing the Gospel as you are being DRAWN to God
#2. This is a step toward God in righteousness
#3. Confess that you now believe and you will be “born-again” forgiven and saved!"

Well well!

Whose work is it to "believe in Christ"?
Answer: "as you are being DRAWN to God" BY GOD!

When is it any come to "believe in Christ"?
Answer: "after hearing the Gospel" being preached TO you!

"This is a step toward God in righteousness" -- IN CONSEQUENCE; not conditionally.

"Confess that you now believe and you will be “born-again” forgiven and saved!"

It isn't said "confess that you now believe"; it is said, "confess your sins"!

To say "Confess that you now believe and you will be “born-again” forgiven and saved!" is to say one is forgiven and saved on strength of one's own and doubtful testimony, and while even one's believing, may not be believed.
For the result is made the cause, and the cause and source, reduced to mere effect.

At the ground lies being 'born-again', the cause and source of one's believing; and under that, lie both one's forgiveness and salvation --- "in Christ".

 

"Whose work is it to Draw"
Answer: God - "I will DRAW ALL unto Me" John 12:32

Whose work is it to BELIEVE
Answer: "BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved" for with the heart MAN believes RESULTING in ...

Or you could take the GE approach above and simply quote yourself as proof that people do not believe - God does!

Or you could just "believe" Romans 10 to see that it is the PERSON who believes and it is never God calling God to believe. Notice also the text does not say "I arbitrarily select out one person to zap so that they believe which results in salvation".

Romans 10
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 for the scripture says, “whoever believes in him will not be disappointed.”


In Christ,

Bob

 

What version are you qouting?