Contemplative Spirituality & Prayer

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by J.Wayne, May 19, 2008.

  1. J.Wayne

    J.Wayne
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    Is the SBC involved in Apostasy?

    On another site, they are saying that the SBC is guilty of apostasy? What are your thoughts?
     
  2. Allan

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    Being an SBC member, Pastor, and Church planter for the SBC, in what way(s) are we involved in apostasy?

    If you want an answer I will state - No.

    However I would like more info so as to better give a reasoned response.
     
  3. J.Wayne

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    Just to be clear, I do not believe what is being said. Here is what they are basing their reasons on:

    SOMETHING NOT RIGHT WITH SOUTHERN BAPTIST CONVENTION... CROSSOVER ‘08


    Apprising Ministries continues looking into Contemplative Mysticism In The Southern Baptist Convention. In that previous post I further shared my concerns that corrupt Contemplative Spirituality/Mysticism (CSM) developed in the antibiblical traditions of apostate Roman Catholicism has slithered from its den in Hell further into the supposedly evangelical “Protestant” Southern Baptist Convention of which I am still a part...for now. by Ken Silva

    http://www.apprising.org/archives/2008/05/something_not_r.html





    According to the news story “INDY: Fulfilling the Mission” in the Baptist Press (BP):
    Fulfilling the mission Christ gave His followers -- bringing lost souls into God’s Kingdom -- will be the focus of the 151st session of the Southern Baptist Convention when it convenes June 10-11 at the Indiana Convention Center... ​
    An intensified focus on prayer will be another feature of the convention. In addition to the prayer room, signs will be posted around the convention center to help messengers make a “prayer journey” for the annual meeting. A virtual prayerwalk will be available at www.crossover08.com for people who can’t attend the convention. Information for those interested in volunteering to intercede for the annual meeting is available on that site as well. (Online source)​
    So here in the words I have highlighted above we have what initially concerned me as one well-versed in the teachings of CSM, and we also have the confirmation that the website Crossover ’08—though maintained by the SCBI—is officially representing the national Southern Baptist Convention. And in another BP story we are told:
    This year's prayer emphasis at the Southern Baptist Convention has been boosted by the efforts of Indianapolis-area pastors who have caught a vision of what can happen when people spend more time praying.​
     
    #3 J.Wayne, May 19, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: May 19, 2008
  4. Baptist Believer

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    Since we have no idea what you are referring to, I don't think anyone can answer definitely. But let me say this, I disagree strongly with some of the positions the SBC has taken in recent years, but I haven't seen anything in the SBC that would come anywhere near apostasy.
     
  5. Baptist Believer

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    That's good, because I suspect it is largely falsehood.

    I don't know a lot about a number of the ministries (or frankly, the current day-to-day work of the SBC), so I can't comment much on the very specific criticisms he is making. However, I do know quite a bit about Dallas Willard, his writings, his lectures, and personal conversations with him over the past few years. This "ministry's" Web site has worked very hard to take his words out of context and out of the larger body of his teaching and try to make them mean something they do not mean. For instance, their foundational article on Willard completely misrepresents his emphasis and ignores the massive biblical foundation of his teaching on spiritual formation.

    Instead of having respect for Willard's calling to minister to students in secular universities, this "ministry" misrepresents Walter Martin's position on higher education to try to make it sound like a bad thing that Willard is living and teaching the gospel in pagan centers of learning. Then for some reason the Web site finds fault with Willard's belief that Jesus calls the lost to be disciples (that's kind of a big thing in the gospels!). Then, the Web site tries to make Willard sound like he is opposed to the atonement, when he simply wants the Western church to consider all of the different ways that the atonement is explained in the New Testament, not just the substitutionary model.

    That Web site is not worth anyone's time or consideration.
     
  6. Allan

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    I went to the web site and did some reading. You need to leave that site alone is my first piece of advice. He doesn't even understand what much of what he is talking about. He accuses christian brothers of the emerging church movement (though I don't agree with it) to be speaking on behalf of satan (most specifically Brain McLaren). Saying James White is advocating mystisism, the list goes on and on of one who is apparently knows little but speaks much.

    No, his information is not only inaccurate and misinformed but extreme and overly biased.
     
    #6 Allan, May 19, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: May 19, 2008
  7. J.Wayne

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    I have no desire to look into that site any further, nor will I return to the so called Christian forum which I was on, and is preaching that the SBC is following and condoning Contemplative Spirituality and Prayer.

    I had not seen this anywhere else and was only interested in what others thought about it.
     
  8. dan e.

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    Oh man, I was a little curious until I saw the source. That site represents Jesus about as much as SFIC drinks alcohol....for those of you that have been familiar with the alcohol threads.

    AM is a joke...and the guy on that site is hardly doing ministry IMHO.
     
  9. ReformedBaptist

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    I think Mr. Silva's concern about Contemplative Spirituality within the SBC is valid.
     
  10. ReformedBaptist

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    McLaren apparantly endorses the book Silva is criticizing (rightly so) by Steve Chalke in that article "Brian McLaren: Speaking for Satan"

    Quoting something from the book, Silva writes,

    "In my view, the real problem with penal substitution (a theory rooted in violence and retributive notions of justice) is its incompatibility, at least as currently taught and understood, with any authentically Christian understanding of the character of God or genuinely Christocentric worldview — given, for instance, Jesus own non-violent, ‘do not return evil for evil’, approach to life.”

    Apparantly, Chalke views the theology of penal substitution in regards to God the Father as a 'cosmis child abuser.'

    Much could be said, but I find no wrong in condemning with the utmost of disgust the kind of statement a Chalke here wrote/said or those who would endorse such heresy.
     
  11. dan e.

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    It doesn't take long to browse the sight and find plenty wrong about the way Silva handles his "ministry". It doesn't matter if he may be correct about problems, or not. He's a guy who thinks he's more important than he really is, with more influence than he really has.
     
  12. Revmitchell

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    That's right it is ungodly.
     
  13. ReformedBaptist

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    *shrugs* whether or not he is rightly conducting himself as a minister of the Gospel is not for me to judge. I can say that I appreciate being made aware of errors and dangers so that I may avoid them.

    There are many fundamentalist discernment ministries that I think many on these boards would not appreciate. However, do you really think the Lord doesn't use them? Take one testimony from this poster who was caught up the neo-prophetic/charismatic movement and how the 'terrible' discernment ministies that pointed out the doctrinal error of the very movement I was in helped free me from some falsehood.
     
  14. Allan

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    Just in case you missed it, he starts out with "in my view..". Secondly he is not speaking for nor in accordance with the SBC's views. Read the Baptist Faith & Message and you will see.

    The author of the site is completely wrong and and intentionally so.

    He takes certain words and tries to correlate them to words used in mystic garbage without any real or valid research and without ever asking what was or is meant in the usage of those particular words. It is gross misrepresention and his site is verifiable evidence of one who causes disunity and strife through gossip and tale-bearing.

    Would you also agree that James White is into the same mystisism and promoting it as well. - He does.
     
    #14 Allan, May 20, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: May 20, 2008
  15. dan e.

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    Oh no! This is the sign that you've been reading his site WAY too much...when you begin descriptions with "neo"!!

    AAuuuggghhh!!!
     
  16. ReformedBaptist

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    Whether he is wrong or no, could be proven or not. Again, I looked at it as a good heads up.

    Are you referring to James White of Alpha and Omega ministries?
     
  17. ReformedBaptist

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    Actually, I am pretty much infamiliar with the man and his articles. I have happened accross the site in the past and until this thread hadn't visited it in months.

    Not sure where I picked up the term neo-prophetic...but wherever I heard it, it seemed fitting for the movement.
     
  18. dan e.

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    ....and that is still WAY too much. :laugh:
     
  19. ReformedBaptist

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    Well, congrats. Now that many seem to hate the guy so much, I am going to explore his website even more.
     
  20. Baptist Believer

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    Do what you want, but I don't think people here "hate the guy", they just know that what he says is seriously twisted and/or intellectually dishonest.

    As I said before, I don't know that much about a number of people he goes after, but I do know quite a bit about one or two of them... and in those cases, he is profoundly wrong about their stances, their writings, and what he claims they represent. Since he has done such a poor job with the only people I'm familiar with, I have little faith in anything else he has written... especially when he likes to use some of them as reference points for charges he makes against others.

    If you read his site, please also take the time to go to primary sources and read what those people actually say and compare it to how the Web site represents them. You will likely find the site is wrong.

    Nearly 30 years ago I became a Christian and was immediately confronted about the popular music I listened to. I wasn't into all the heavy metal and satanic imagery, but I did enjoy a number of popular bands. There were several adults in my church who wanted me to immediately switch from popular "secular" music to Southern Gospel exclusively, and couched it in terms of being obedient to Christ.

    Now I actually like some Southern Gospel music and, at that time, actually had a pretty extensive collection of it that I inherited from my deceased grandparents, but I didn't want to go on an exclusive diet of it. When I started asking questions, I was given several anti-rock books by Bob Larson, Jacob Aranza, and the Peters Brothers. I read about all the things that were wrong with rock music, musicians, and their lifestyles. I actually believed most of their arguments until I came across a quote in one of the Bob Larson books. Larson had quoted from an interview with The Eagles (Joe Walsh specifically) that lamented how illegal drugs in the high schools were making high schoolers stupid. He said, summing up his concern, that if they had had drugs in his high school growing up, he "would still be in high school" (referencing how he would have gotten lost in a drug haze instead of accomplishing anything -- which actually happened to him a few years later after The Eagles broke up). But the thing is, I had previously read that interview a few months before when I was looking through a stack of old Rolling Stones magazines, and I knew that Bob Larson didn't actually take Walsh's comments in context. Instead, he claimed that Joe Walsh said that if they had drugs in high school, he would "be in high school" in a context that insinuated that Joe Walsh would be happy to go anywhere there were drugs. Now there was actually a lot of truth to that attitude, since Walsh was rapidly becoming addicted to a number of hard drugs at the time, but Larson had completely misrepresented what Walsh had said.

    But that relatively minor issue started me on the path of checking quotes with primary sources when I read "Christian" exposes. I quickly found out that Larson's books weren't worth the cheap paper they were printed on. Jacob Aranza's books weren't any better, and the Peters Brothers had more integrity (although they were not guiltless), but also some really flaky ideas about what we should expect from musicians.

    And since then, I have run across things like David Barton's numerous books and videos on church and state history and issues (most of it completely misrepresents history and is fairly dishonest in a number of places) and a number of "prophetic" Web sites that claim that most of Christendom is completely corrupt.

    I hate to say it, but most "Christian" exposes I have attempted to verify completely fail any reasonable standard of integrity and ethics. The Web site articles in question for this thread seem to fit that mold, since everything I can immediately check out completely fails the tests of honesty and basic logic.

    And what really gets me is that we have some pastors here on BaptistBoard who seem to exercise absolutely no discernment regarding the articles they post and reference, then refuse to take any responsibility for spreading false charges and content against others (whether they be political opponents, Christian leaders, or the government). Do these pastors regularly give a platform in their congregations for any person who wants to mouth off about anything, or do they use some discernment to determine if the person has something to say that is truthful, appropriate and helpful?

    One day we will be called to account for all of our idle words (and well as malicious ones). Don't you think that, with all of the warnings about providing support to false teachers in the New Testament, that intentionally giving a platform (through linking a false teacher to a Christian Web site) escapes the notice of God? Furthermore, if we (especially those of us who are pastors or who have a theological education) don't use any discernment and fail to verify things using primary sources, are we living up to our calling to be leaders in the church, discerning good from evil?

    Or is there any respect for God left among Baptists?
     
    #20 Baptist Believer, May 23, 2008
    Last edited: May 23, 2008

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