continuing God's Sovereignty on Reprobation

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by pinoybaptist, Jul 27, 2002.

  1. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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  2. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    God is not setting up an exhibition. He is not required to show human beings anything like you have suggested. He knows his unlimited capabilities. The stoutest rebels and His mightiest enemies will not be able to stand in His Presence. 'Every knee shall bow . . . ' 'The nations are as a drop in {His} bucket.' But, thanks be to God you and I are adopted sons and daughters of the living God.

    Even one of your own Calvinistic brethren, Mr. Harold Camping, says that Christians should go over their creeds and filter out the error. He said this even about the Westminster Confession. Only the reflective views of some trained students/scholars. Our concern is to adhere only to God's Word, the Bible.

    The fact is that probably only a small number considering the billions of people will ever make it into His Presence to live with Him forever. Some say 2-3% . . .
     
  3. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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  4. KenH

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    Fact? Don't more than 3% die each year through abortion, miscarriage, and disease when they are still very, very young?

    I thank God that I am now a postmillennialist and now believe that more than some tiny percentage will be in heaven.

    Ken
    A Happy Spurgeonite :D :D :D :D
    www.spurgeon.org
     
  5. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    Ken Hamilton,

    It is your wish to disagree with Jesus in Acts7:14. I tend to agree with my Lord.
     
  6. KenH

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    (Acts 7:14 NKJV) "Then Joseph sent and called his father Jacob and all his relatives to him, seventy-five people.

    Ray, I don't see the connection.

    Ken
    A Happy Spurgeonite :D :D :D :D
    www.spurgeon.org
     
  7. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    Hmmmm....and yet you say we Calvinists/Electionists are the ones who portray God as unmerciful and "escorting billions of souls to hell". (Do you do drugs, Ray ? :D :D :D Just kidding).
     
  8. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    Ken Hamilton,

    Sorry about the wrong reference. We were discussing about the idea that approximately 2-3%
    can in any way be classified as Christian. This would mean that about 97% of all human kind is outside the pale of God's wonderful grace. I meant to jot down Matthew 7:14 instead of Acts 7:14. The first reference indicates that Jesus said that only ' . . . few there be that find the strait gate and the narrow way that leads to life.

    Arminians realize that lets say--over 90% of all human beings will not make it to Heaven, but not because of some decree that God makes. The majority of people will not make it because they have never heard the name of Christ. Many will willfully transgress against the wooing of the Holy Spirit. These will receive the 'greater punishment in the realm of the lost.'

    Ray Berrian
     
  9. KenH

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    Ray,

    I believe that you and your Arminian brethren are wrong. But we can keep going round and round on this without any further profit.

    You can live your life looking forward to a small group joining you in heaven and I can live my life looking forward to most of those ever conceived joining me in heaven.

    I think I have the more hopeful, joyful outlook. I have no interest in trading it for your pessimism.

    Ken
    A Joyful Spurgeonite :D :D :D :D
    www.spurgeon.org
     
  10. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    Some decree ? Let's hear God on His "some decree":
    Isaiah 43:1-7
    1 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.
    2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.
    3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.
    4 Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.
    5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;
    6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth; 7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.


    I suppose you will now argue that north and south and all the ends of the earth pertain only to Israel or the middle east and only for Isaiah's time ?
    Some decree ?
    You always limit the power of God, and the extent of Christ's finished work on the cross. I do not think we worship the same God for the God we worship is Almighty, whose will cannot be broken, and whose eternal designs and purposes are certainly not subject to the will and permissions of worms and dust.
    The God we worship is certainly loving in that He designed to have mercy on people who deserve no mercy at all, but he is certainly not a weak, sweating, hand-wringing bachelor who nervously woos sinners and gets rejection after rejection if I am to believe what you say.
    The God we worship achieved what He came into this earth for: the salvation of HIS people. He cried it is finished ! and when He says it is finished, it is finished.
    All that the Father gave Him from eternity past for eternity future are redeemed, and in His due time He will call them home to Him, whether in this plane called time, or not.
     
  11. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    pinoybaptist,

    Christians who lean more toward an Arminian theology also believe that God has decreed some things, but not personal salvation. Just so you know . . .

    The true God has done all that He can do to save sinners. All sinner have to do is sincerely believe in Jesus saving benefits accomplished on the old, rugged Cross.
     
  12. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    Ken Hamilton,

    What could be more pessimistic than what Spurgeon believed. He, I'm sure, believed that God autocratically chosen His own people to salvation and damned the greater group to Hell. According to Calvinism these are not relegated to Hell for 30,000 years but forever. This is hopelessness to the extremity. Can we even try to imagine. In Hell forever--this is greater than pessimism, wouldn't you agree?
     
  13. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    Yeah, right.
    Like, "God, you have the say on anything and everything except my eternal destiny. That is my territory. Not yours."



    Now, He must sit back, having done all He could do to save sinners, and hope us poor, miserable, corrupted souls will take notice of Him and His sacrifice and repent with no help from Him. :rolleyes:
     
  14. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    pinoybaptist,

    Your last paragraph may be alright for argruments sake, but it is totally unbiblical as far as the correct way we see things.

    God isn't just sitting on the side lines hoping someone will receive Him. He is actively convicting and convincing people of their need of He and His salvation. [Rev. 22:17]

    He has decreed the free agency of human beings either in neglecting Him or receiving His new life in Christ. The sooner you agree with the Bible you will not have to come up with forced, theories like all unsaved infants not ordained to Heaven-- entering Hell forever.
     
  15. KenH

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    Ray,

    According to Spurgeonism, God graciously reaches down to poor sinners and saves them to the glory of His mercy. Those that are lost damn themselves by their own sin and God places them in hell to the glory of His justice.

    Yes, it is very sad that anyone ends up in hell. It is also very sad that there are people teaching that people can do something to save themselves by their own ability. According to your understanding of how salvation takes place, Ray, if it were true, then certainly no one who reached a point in life where they were accountable for their sin would be saved - ever.

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
    www.spurgeon.org
     
  16. ScottEmerson

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    So God chooses NOT to save some? How is that any different at all from God choosing to send them to go to Hell?

    From where do you get THAT logic? Only by inserting your own assumptions in the foreign (to you) model of Arminianism do you get to that point.
     
  17. KenH

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    1) All the difference in the world, Scott.

    2) From man's inability as explained by Christ Jesus.

    (John 6:44 NKJV) "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

    (John 6:65 NKJV) And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
    www.spurgeon.org
     
  18. pinoybaptist

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    Here are some more scriptures, Scott:

    Romans 9:21-24
     
  19. KenH

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    That passage in Romans does not say God fitted the vessels of wrath for destruction but it does say He prepared the vessels of mercy for glory.

    Salvation and damnation are not symmetrical as God is the cause of salvation but not of damnation. Salvation is all of God, but damnation is all of man.

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
    www.spurgeon.org

    [ August 03, 2002, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
  20. pinoybaptist

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    No, Ken, it does not say fitted for but it does say fitted to destruction. My point is that God did choose His people whom He will save, and not all of humanity, as some of our friends imply.

    Now, for Scott:

    Romans 11:7-8
     

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