contradictions...

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Alive in Christ, Jul 29, 2013.

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  1. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ
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    I just cant understand how calvinists can hold things together in light of scriptures like...

    Even when I was a calvinist, it bothered me.
     
    #1 Alive in Christ, Jul 29, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 29, 2013
  2. The Archangel

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    It is possible that the verse doesn't mean what many assume it to mean.

    Who is the "any" that God is not willing to perish? Who is the "all" that God wills to come to repentance?

    Whatever theological construct one operates under, we know from the text of scripture that not everyone will be saved--there will be sheep and there will be goats.

    We also know that God is not a hand-wringing pleader simply begging us to believe by saying, "Believe in me, or I'll say 'believe' again."

    Those to whom Peter was writing is the audience here. So, to the church Peter says:
    The Lord...is patient toward you (all).
    The patience of God while He gives call after call to repentance is easily demonstrable in scripture. God is indeed patient; He puts up with much.

    In this case, Peter is relating the Lord's patience in bringing about the consummation of the age and the final judgment.

    One negative reason that Peter gives to the church is this:
    Not wishing that any should perish
    The positive parallel follows:
    But that all should reach repentance
    Who is the "any?" Is it any birds, fish, Volkswagons, or Martians? No. It is likely any of those to whom Peter is writing. Likewise, the "all" is likely the ones to whom Peter is writing.

    This illustrates for us, in addition to other things, that there are sheep and goats in the church (Jesus Himself makes this quite clear). God is patient even while calling the goats to repentance--and it doesn't matter if they are goats inside the church or outside the church.

    Even so, no goat becomes a sheep without a radical, God-wrought transformation that changes the very DNA of the goat. This is how rebels become loyal sons of the King.

    The Archangel
     
  3. Winman

    Winman
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    This is simply ridiculous if Calvinism and especially Irresistible Grace is true. Why should God call a person over and over again when he can immediately regenerate them?

    God puts up with much? Why? Who is God waiting on, himself?

    The Calvinist explanation for this verse is laughable and makes no sense whatsoever.
     
  4. InTheLight

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    Have to agree with the Winman here.


    There are no goats in the Church, the Bride of Christ. Furthermore, if one believes in unconditional election, as I presume Calvinists believe Peter did, then there is no need for Peter to say this. They would already know that not "all" will be elected, and that election is a supernatural choice by God, you're either elected or you're not, and that the act is initiated by God, so no patience by God is required.
     
  5. annsni

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    The question is this:

    Is God's will fallable? Can we thwart God's will? Does man have power over God's will?

    I don't think the answer to any of these questions can ever be "yes".
     
  6. Iconoclast

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    No....you just do not want to understand.

    God also ordained the means,prayer, witness, bible study,the turning in repentance and faith, that is seen by others ...

    You take God's name in vain, once again. Perhaps many of the elect are not yet conceived as of yet...God puts up with the sinful ungodly rebellion until each and every last one of the elect sheep are safely folded!
    Jesus might have multitudes more to save in years to come.....So he is longsuffering to usward....and by no means will any perish of those he came to save...he is not willing to lose one...and he will not.Not one of them.

    It is not a laughing matter at all. You need to think it out.

    As biblicist has shown, you ignore the context and miss the teaching as is your custom.In light of the scoffers Peter explains God's love and mercy in election,only the scoffers do not like it.They wrest the scriptures to their own destruction...
     
  7. The Archangel

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    I agree there are no goats in the Bride. However, not everyone who claims to be a sheep is a sheep--hence the sheep/goats dichotomy. The local, visible church, as opposed to the Universal Church, contains both sheep and goats.

    Peter knows, as does any good pastor, that amongst the professing sheep there will always be goats...and a few wolves. This is why we are to make our calling and election sure and this is why we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

    Peter exhorts his audience, in effect, to make sure one is actively living in repentance and faith.

    The Archangel
     
  8. webdog

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    Agreed, not to mention there is no place for a word like patience in a deterministic model.
     
  9. Herald

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    You ask a fair and reasonable question that deserves a fair and reasonable response.

    First, and this is important, it is not wise to build a doctrine on one verse. A person who proof-text's to make a point is displaying a lack of skill in being able to exegete scripture. Sadly this happens in both Calvinist and Arminian camps. It is rampant on this board; posters who think they are teachers when they lack even rudimentary skills in biblical exegesis. I am not saying that a person needs a seminary degree to understand scripture. There are ways a person can become educated enough to rightly divide the word of truth without a formal education. But a lazy approach to understanding the Bible is not sufficient grounds to assume the role of teacher.

    In 2 Peter 3 the Apostle reveals he is writing to believers. He addresses them as "beloved" in 2 Peter 3:1. In verse 8 he writes, "But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved..." So, Peter's letter is not addressed to unbelievers. That is an important fact to keep in mind.

    In the previous chapter Peter writes:

    This verse tells us something about God's disposition towards His elect and the non-elect (i.e. the godly and the unrighteous). God will rescue the godly (the elect) while executing punishment (wrath) on the unrighteous (non-elect). If God truly wishes for all to come repentance (2 Peter 3:9), then why does He keep the unrighteous under punishment? Why does God prevent those whom He desires to come to repentance from actually doing so? Answer: He doesn't. The reason God displays patience to all is so that all His elect will be brought in; all His "beloved". It is of that group, the beloved, that God desires "not wishing for any to perish". If God truly desires all people to be saved then God is in the hope business. God is not in the hope business because God does not need to hope. God is in complete control.
     
  10. Winman

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    I understand completely, God could irresistibly regenerate any person any time he chooses to, so why does God need to be patient and longsuffering with any person?

    I think it is you that that does not understand how ridiculous your own doctrine is.

    Doesn't change a thing, there is no need for God to suffer when he could regenerate any person immediately if your doctrine is true (it isn't)

    It is your doctrine that makes God looks foolish and confused, why does God need to be patient? In your view he could cause any person to repent immediately and they would be irresistibly caused to do so.

    I HAVE thought it out, and that is exactly why I believe the Calvinist explanation of this verse is laughable. It is you that obviously lacks true thinking skills.

    Blah, blah, blah, you guys must think people are really stupid. Not everybody is dumb enough to believe the ridiculous Calvinist explanation for this verse. If Irresistible Grace is true, there is no need for God to wait a single second, he could cause any person to immediately repent any time he chooses.

    What is truly amazing is that there are ANY persons foolish enough to fall for your doctrine.
     
    #10 Winman, Aug 2, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 2, 2013
  11. Squire Robertsson

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    Fair Warning.

    It's comments like this that will cause me close a thread. The Calvinist posting here just didn't come up with their positions ex nihlo nor did the position develop in the last fifty years.
    For the Calvinists: The sentence above applies equally to you. Those whom you are debating didn't pull their positions out of their ears.
     
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