Contradictory accounts?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by xdisciplex, May 16, 2007.

  1. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex
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    I found something which really confuses me. It's about the scene where Jesus comes to his hometown with his disciples and the people reject him. While I thought about this scene something came to my mind. In 1 gospel it says that the people didn't believe Jesus and that they were offended and that Jesus could only do a few healings there and then he went to other cities.

    And in another gospel it says that Jesus preaches in his hometown and says that Isaiah 53 has been fulfilled and the people get angry and try to push him off a cliff and Jesus walks right through them. But in both accounts Jesus says the same things to the people, in both gospels he says that a prophet is not respected in his hometown. But the problem is that in both accounts the story is totally different. While they are trying to kill Jesus in one account they are only offended in the other one and another problem is that in Luke 4 Jesus does not have any disciples yet but in Mark 6 he has disciples when he comes to Nazareth!!!!

    Luke 4

    Luk 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
    Luk 4:15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
    Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
    Luk 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
    Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
    Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
    Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
    Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
    Luk 4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?
    Luk 4:23 And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.
    Luk 4:24 And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.
    Luk 4:25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;
    Luk 4:26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.
    Luk 4:27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.
    Luk 4:28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
    Luk 4:29 And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.
    Luk 4:30 But he passing through the midst of them went his way,
    Luk 4:31 And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on the sabbath days.
    Luk 4:32 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power.
    Luk 4:33 And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice,
    Luk 4:34 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.
    Luk 4:35 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. And when the devil had thrown him in the midst, he came out of him, and hurt him not.
    Luk 4:36 And they were all amazed, and spake among themselves, saying, What a word is this! for with authority and power he commandeth the unclean spirits, and they come out.
    Luk 4:37 And the fame of him went out into every place of the country round about.
    Luk 4:38 And he arose out of the synagogue, and entered into Simon's house. And Simon's wife's mother was taken with a great fever; and they besought him for her.
    Luk 4:39 And he stood over her, and rebuked the fever; and it left her: and immediately she arose and ministered unto them.
    Luk 4:40 Now when the sun was setting, all they that had any sick with divers diseases brought them unto him; and he laid his hands on every one of them, and healed them.
    Luk 4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.
    Luk 4:42 And when it was day, he departed and went into a desert place: and the people sought him, and came unto him, and stayed him, that he should not depart from them.
    Luk 4:43 And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.
    Luk 4:44 And he preached in the synagogues of Galilee.
    Luk 5:1 And it came to pass, that, as the people pressed upon him to hear the word of God, he stood by the lake of Gennesaret,
    Luk 5:2 And saw two ships standing by the lake: but the fishermen were gone out of them, and were washing their nets.
    Luk 5:3 And he entered into one of the ships, which was Simon's, and prayed him that he would thrust out a little from the land. And he sat down, and taught the people out of the ship.
    Luk 5:4 Now when he had left speaking, he said unto Simon, Launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a draught.
    Luk 5:5 And Simon answering said unto him, Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing: nevertheless at thy word I will let down the net.
    Luk 5:6 And when they had this done, they inclosed a great multitude of fishes: and their net brake.
    Luk 5:7 And they beckoned unto their partners, which were in the other ship, that they should come and help them. And they came, and filled both the ships, so that they began to sink.
    Luk 5:8 When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord.

    Mark 6

    Mar 6:1 And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him.
    Mar 6:2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
    Mar 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
    Mar 6:4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
    Mar 6:5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
    Mar 6:6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.



    Is there any logical explanation for this?

    Even if you simply said that these are 2 totally different accounts and Luke and Mark are talking about different scenes then WHY does Jesus say the same thing in both accounts which is that a prophet is not accepted in his own county and why do the people both react the same in both accounts > And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?

    Why should they react the same way on 2 different occassions? If these are 2 different events then why should they act the same way and ask themselves if this is Jesus, the son of Joseph when they already know that it's him from the first time where he came to Nazareth when they tried to kill him? This doesn't make any sense. :(
     
  2. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza
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    There is a theological lesson in both accounts.
     
  3. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex
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    Theological lesson?

    But those 2 accounts can impossibly be talking about the same event! It's impossible. In Mark 6 Jesus is followed by his disciples but in Luke 4 Jesus does not even have disciples yet!!! He gets them in Luke 5!! :eek::eek::eek:
     
  4. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
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    Mark and Luke are reporters here. Read accounts of the same incident by different reporters. They often will emphasize different things, and omit others.

    To me, the fact that accounts of the same incident differ with the reporters strengthens the idea of inspired scriptures, not weakens.
     
  5. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex
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    This argument is often used by christians BUT in this case it doesn't solve anything.
    Even if there are different reports of eye witnesses they must NEVER contradict each other! In Mark 6 Jesus comes WITH his disciples and in Luke 4 Jesus doesn't even have disciples yet!

    Let's say 2 people watch a Bush speech and then write about it then it also cannot be that somebody writes that Bush was accompanied by Arnold Schwarzenegger if he wasn't accompanied by him!

    I am a bit surprised that you guys are taking this so lightly and that you are satisfied with the typical standard answer which goes like "those are simply different eye witness accounts...."
     
  6. Agnus_Dei

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    Unless you were there, how would you know that Schwarenegger wasn’t accompanying Bush? Your assuming there’s a contradiction, when there’s not.

    One reporter thought it was relevant to mention the California Governor with Bush and the other didn’t seem to think so. Each reporter writes with a specific topic and agenda.
    -
     
  7. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex
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    Oh boy, I give up. I simply cannot take this seriously anymore.

    In Mark 6 Jesus has disciples. In Luke 4 he does not have disciples cause he makes them in Luke 5!!!! Okay!?!?!?!?

    Man, this is really starting to anger me. Those arguments are simply a joke. Can you not even try to really take this issue seriously and not simply come up with those ridiculous 101 christian standard arguments which you simply copy & paste from a christian site? Gosh...
     
  8. tragic_pizza

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    Look, I am taking it seriously.

    My point is that Mark's account and Luke's accounts had the overarching intention of teaching not history, but theology. This does not mean that the history is bad; in fact it is quite good. However, the history isn't the point, the spiritual truth is.

    Let's suppose for a minute that Luke had read Mark's account, and had heard the account of the man with the whitered hand. Now, Luke is likely writing his account more than a decade or two after it occurred, relying on accounts of Apostles and other people who had been there. Perhaps, for the purpose of spiritual truth, Luke purposely telescoped two visits to Nazareth into one. Perhaps Luke heard the account of the man with the whitered hand an supposed that it had happened at the same time as the story in Mark, and put them together. Perhaps the way he heard the account in the first place was telescoped. Perhaps, finally, Mark omitted or never heard from Peter or the other Apostles about the man with the whitered hand.


    None of these possibilities means that the Bible is inaccurate.
     
  9. hillclimber1

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    Why is this stuff relevant? What is the purpose in challenging the Bibles truth and accuracy?
     
  10. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza
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    Oh, that's easy.

    The way you learn, the way you make something relevant to your life, is by examining, challenging, digging and stretching. The most dangerous thing in the world is to decide that something is so sacrosanct as to be above examination.

    If someone is too afraid of losing their faith to challenge their assumptions, they will never grow.
     
  11. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex
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    I think you guys don't understand what this is all about, you don't even seem to understand the size of such a "problem". I am not saying the bible is wrong but I am saying that we have to take such things very seriously and investigate them!

    Do you not believe in divine inspiration? All those typical "well, those are simply 2 different accounts and after all this isn't about history it's about theology and it doesn't even matter if Mark says that Jesus was wearing a blue shirt in this scene or if Matthew says that Jesus was wearing a red shirt in the same scene..."

    Do you not understand that the bible cannot and also must not contain only 1 single contradiction!?! 1 single contradiction would disprove the divine inspiration!
    And because of this I think it is indeed problematic when you simply say that this is about the same event when Mark 6 says that Jesus went there WITH his disciples and Luke 4 says that Jesus went alone and that he did not even have disciples yet!
     
  12. His Blood Spoke My Name

    His Blood Spoke My Name
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    xdx,

    Study it out. There is a reasonable explanation for this. It could be that the events in Luke 5 took place before the events in Luke 4.

    It is not unusual for events in the Word of God to be chronologically out of order.

    If one studies closely, one will find that the events in Genesis 11 actually occurred before the events in Genesis Chapter 10.

    Could be the same in the New Testament.
     
  13. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza
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    Well, xdx, we disagree that the Bible must be free of contradictions. That is placing the Bible on an equal plane with God.

    The Bible is not God.

    It is a book.
     
  14. Eric B

    Eric B
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    I gop into this a bit in my harmony of the Gospels http://members.aol.com/etb700/monoevangelion.html

    I point out: "Luke does not seem to be following a particular timeline...as much as Matthew does. It is being acknowledged now that in some of the Gospels, a strict timeline may not always be followed. This greatly helps in understanding apparent contradictions. Luke often is the one thought to be closest to the actual sequence, because of his pledge to Theophilus to "write unto you in order", but in the Greek, the word translated "order" means, basically, "thereafter", and is describing Luke's presentation of the Gospel to Theophilus, not the synoptic sequence contained in it. (Others now say that Mark is the most sequential of the synoptic Gospels)."

    Here's the outline of the order my harmony follows, with the source Gospels:

    Ch.2 THE BIRTH OF JOHN (Luke 1)
    3 THE BIRTH OF CHRIST (Matt.1:18-25, Luke 2, John 1:14)
    4 THE GENEOLOGY OF JESUS THROUGH JOSEPH (Matt.1:1-17)
    4:18 GENEOLOGY OF JESUS THROUGH MARY (Luke 3)
    5 WISE MEN SEEK JESUS (Matt.2, Lk.2:39)
    5:25 JESUS IN THE TEMPLE AT 12 YEARS OF AGE (Matt.2)
    6 JOHN PREPARES THE WAY (John 1:19, Lk 3 Mt.3)
    6:26 THE BAPTISM OF JESUS (Mt/Lk 3)
    7 THE GREAT TEMPTATION (Lk/Mt.4)
    8 JOHN PROCLAIMS CHRIST (John 1:19-34)
    8:18 CHRIST CALLS FIRST DISCIPLES (Jn.1, Lk.5, Mt.4)
    9 MARRIAGE IN CANA (John 2)
    10 NICODEMUS QUESTIONS CHRIST (John 3)
    10:22 JOHN FURTHER TESTIFIES OF JESUS; AND IS CAST INTO PRISON (John 3, Luke 3, Mark 6:18-20)
    11 THE WOMAN IN SAMARIA (Mt.4:12, John 4)
    11:43 RETURN TO GALILEE (Jn.4)
    12 REJECTED IN NAZARETH (Lk.4)
    12:16 DWELLS IN CAPERNAUM (Mt.4)
    13 THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT (Mt.5, Lk.6 & 12:32,33)
    16 CHRIST HEALS MAN WITH UNCLEAN SPIRIT; SIMON'S MOTHER IN LAW; MAN WITH LEPROSY (Mt.8 Lk.4, Mk.1)
    17 MAN SICK OF THE PALSY; QUESTIONED FOR FORGIVING SINS (Mk.2, Mt.9, Lk.5)
    17:16 JESUS CALLS MATTHEW; QUESTIONED FOR SITTING WITH PUBLICANS (Mt.9, Lk.5:39)
    18 HEALING IN BETHESDA (John 5)
    18:17 JESUS RESPONDS TO ACCUSERS (John 5)
    19 PLUCKING GRAINS AND HEALING MAN WITH WITHERED HAND ON THE SABBATH (Mt.12. Mk.3, Lk.6:8)
    19:20 "HE SHALL SHOW JUDGMENT TO THE GENTILES" (Mk.3, Mt.12)
    19:29 JESUS CHOOSES THE TWELVE (Lk.6:12,13 Mt.10:1-4, 11:1)
    20 JESUS HEALS THE CENTURION'S SERVANT AND RAISES DEAD MAN IN NAIN (Lk.7, Mt.8:10-13)
    21 JOHN ASKS OF JESUS FROM PRISON (Lk.7, Mt.11)
    21:22 JESUS UPBRAIDS CITIES THAT REJECTED HIM (Mt.11)
    21:33 JESUS FORGIVES WOMAN AT SIMON'S HOUSE (Lk.7)
    22 PHARISEES ACCUSE JESUS OF CASTING OUT DEVILS BY BEELZEBUB (Lk.8, 11:21, 22, Mt.12, Mk.3:21)
    22:23 SCRIBES AND PHARISEES SEEK A SIGN (Mt.12)
    22:31 MY MOTHER AND MY BROTHERS (Mt.13, Lk.8, Mk.4)
    23 PARABLE OF THE SOWER AND SEEDS AND THE GROUND (Mt.13)
    23:33 PARABLE OF THE WHEAT AND TARES (Mt.13)
    23:40 PARABLES OF MUSTARD SEED; LEAVEN (Mt.13)
    23:46 JESUS EXPLAINS PARABLE OF WHEAT AND TARES (Mt.13)
    23:64 A PROPHET WITHOUT HONOR IN HIS OWN COUNTRY (Mt.13, Mk.6:5,6)
    24 JESUS CALMS THE SEA (Mt.8, Lk.9)
    24:14 HEALING OF MEN FROM THE TOMBS POSESSED WITH DEVILS (Mk.5, Mt.8, Lk.8)
    24:31 HEALING OF JAIRUS' DAUGHTER AND WOMAN WITH ISSUE OF BLOOD (Mk.5, Lk.8, Mt.9)
    24:54 HEALING OF TWO BLIND MEN (Mt.9)
    25 THE SENDING OUT OF THE TWELVE (Mk.6, Mt.12, Lk.12)
    26 ACCOUNT OF THE DEATH OF JOHN (Mt.14, Mk.6)
    26:15 FEEDING OF THE FIVE THOUSAND (Mk.6, Jn.6)
    26:39 JESUS WALKS ON THE WATER (Mt.14, Jn.6, Mk. 6)
     

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