Conversion and Salvation

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by IveyLeaguer, Jan 10, 2006.

  1. IveyLeaguer

    IveyLeaguer
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    Considering some of the current threads I thought the following would make for interesting discussion.
    Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them who are sanctified by faith that is in Me.

    Also, if Chambers is right, or even close, what does that say about today's evangelism?
     
  2. genesis12

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    For me, he confuses the issue. Conversion implies that one has converted from a lost state to a found state through acceptance of Jesus Christ. An evangelist sets the stage, if you will, for one to be converted: to have a conversion experience.

    Today's TV evangelism is, for the most part, embarrassing, to say the least. Billions of dollars thrown away, which the local church could use to interact with its community.
     
  3. Hope of Glory

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    Conversion is something that only a Christian can do. It's not something a lost person can do.

    [Matthew 18:3: Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.] First of all, please notice that this is talking about entering the Kingdom and not salvation. The phrase, “Except you be converted” is not an invitation to his disciples to be saved, but an invitation to a change of direction. The word “convert” is translated “turned about” in [Luke 7:9, which says, “When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.”] For Jesus to face the crowd that followed him, he had to twist or turn around or reverse. Keep in mind that the Greek word for “convert” is not the same as the Greek word for “repent”.
     
  4. gb93433

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    If you do not enter the kingdom of heaven then you do not enter heaven.

    Psalm 51:13, "Then I will teach transgressors Your ways, and sinners will be converted to You."

    Looks like according to Psalm 51:13 sinners are converted.
     
  5. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory
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    There will be many saved people who are rejected from entering the Kingdom. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when they see what they missed out on by not living a faithful life; by not converting.

    We are saved simply by believing.

    We enter the Kingdom through much tribulation.
     
  6. IveyLeaguer

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    So where do the saved people who are rejected from the kingdom end up? And what are they saved from?
     
  7. Helen

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    In that case, God is NOT able to finish the good work He started in them (Phil. 1:6) and the Holy Spirit failed at changing them to the likeness of Christ! (Romans 8:28-30)

    how sad...
     
  8. StraightAndNarrow

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    You've argued on other threads for Eternal Security but here you seem to say the opposite. Like Ivey I'm confused about what you mean by "saved."

    BTW, I agree with you if you're saying that something more than simply in Christ is necessary for salvation, namely living a Christian life and demonstrating love for our fellow human beings.
     
  9. OldRegular

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    The initial event in salvation is regeneration, the theological term synonymous with ‘rebirth’ or ‘being born again’. Regeneration is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are brought into union with Jesus Christ. Whereas the unregenerate person has no disposition, interest, or desire for the things of God the regenerate person is a new creation and is now receptive to the ‘effectual call’ of the Holy Spirit.

    Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the effectual call and turns to God in faith and repentance.
     
  10. Hope of Glory

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    Spiritual salvation is simply based on the finished work of Jesus on the cross, and it guarantees you that you will not spend the rest of eternity in the lake of fire. This is secure, and is based simply upon your acceptance of the free gift.

    The Kingdom is of limited duration, and you are either going to serve here in this age, or in the age to come. This is based upon your behavior here.

    You can be saved and still end up missing out on the better part of your inheritance. All of your works can be burned, but you yourself will be saved as through fire.

    The Bible says very little about what happens after that.

    I had to edit to add a hearty amen to Old Regular.
     
  11. StraightAndNarrow

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    Jesus said He came to establish a heavenly kingdom not an earthly one. The Kingdom is eternal. Where in the Bible do you find the idea of a temporal kingdom supported?

    The Bible is very clear about what will happen to all of us. Those who are faithful to Christ will be saved and go to heaven. Those who followed Saten will be damned and will burn in Hell for all eternity.
     
  12. Hope of Glory

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    Umm... What about the Millennial Kingom; the age to come?
     
  13. James_Newman

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    John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

    When we pray 'thy kingdom come,' we are not praying for some pie-in-the-sky ideal, but for the literal kingdom that is to come. Jesus Christ does not currently reign on this earth as He will then. Then His will will be done on earth as it currently is in Heaven.
     
  14. IveyLeaguer

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    I don't know but I suspect what Chambers is talking about here is the so-called "decision for Christ". That salvation cannot be attained by the effort of a human being.

    To take a stab at it in modern english: That we can open the eyes of people so that they realize they need something and, being awake, some make an effort. But that is not regeneration, since only God can regenerate. So Chambers calls this manual effort, which includes vows and promises, 'conversion' (I doubt he'd use that term today).

    But the reality is they have received NOTHING. They have not really received Christ because receiving Christ is regeneration and forgiveness of sins. In Chambers words, "When a person is born again, he knows it is because he has received something as a gift from Almighty God and not because of his own decision."

    ...."to whom I am sending you", so that you will "open their eyes, and TURN them from darkness to light .... , so that they might RECEIVE the forgiveness of sins ...." Acts 26:17-18 (ISV)(emphasis mine)

    Apparently Chambers thought Jesus was telling Paul that we should 'turn' from what we are and what we have, so that we are "brought to the place where we are able to receive something from God on the authority of Jesus Christ, namely, the forgiveness of sins."
     
  15. genesis12

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    Quoting straightandnarrow:

    "BTW, I agree with you if you're saying that something more than simply in Christ is necessary for salvation, namely living a Christian life and demonstrating love for our fellow human beings."

    Friend, I hope I'm misunderstanding your comment. If our salvation depends upon us 'living a Christian life and demonstrating love for our fellow human beings,' then we are all lost. Scripture is clear: Nothing to the Cross I bring, only to the Cross I cling. Salvation by works is an empty promise, a self-defeating goal.
     
  16. IveyLeaguer

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    This confuses me also, S&N. As regenerate Christians, to be "in Christ" is our blessed hope, everything we long for.
     
  17. pinoybaptist

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    Salvation is the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ at the cross, in time.
    After the cross, the writer of Hebrews tells us, He entered into the holy place His own blood for the eternal redemption of His people (Heb. 9:12).
    So the salvation of all His people, past, present, future, is finished.
    If one is saved by accepting Christ as Savior, then, of necessity, He must be nailed again to the cross with the accepting one's sins
    in order to become that sinner's Savior.

    Regeneration on the other hand is that operation of the Spirit by which He brings to life the dead soul of the redeemed one, at the Spirit's own place and time, an operation without which the dead sinner will not see his need for Christ, and will not see himself as God sees him.

    JC Philpot writes:

    Conversion, on the other hand, is a continuing process, therefore, conversion is not regeneration.
    The 11 apostles were elect of God, both unto salvation and unto a great work. Christ sought them and called them into service.
    They walked with him, ate with him, conversed with him, saw him do miracles, saw him walk in water, raise the dead, heal the sick, make the lame walk again, the blind to see.
    Yet, their conversion were not full, for when Christ hung on that cross, they were all filled with despair, and scattered.
    During the early years of the church, Peter still had to convert in many ways, for example, when Paul confronted his hypocrisy in refusing to eat with the Gentiles in the presence of other Jews.
     
  18. standingfirminChrist

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    Salvation is the gift of God after accepting Jesus Christ and trusting in His finished Work on the Cross


    If one chooses to reject Christ and His finished work, that one will spend eternity in the lake of fire. If one chooses to accept Christ, that one is promised life and peace in the kingdom of Christ and His dear Father. One must make a decision. No decision is a decision. Jesus said, 'He that is not with me, is against me'.
     
  19. StraightAndNarrow

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    Salvation is not by works. Salvation is through a saving faith in Jesus Chist. But a saving faith demands a completely changed life. "Ye must be born again." This change requires effort on our part all the rest of our lives to keep the faith. In other words, WE must pick up OUR cross and follow Him. That's not works salvation. That's living the Christian life.
     
  20. IveyLeaguer

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    Now that's clear. "I have fought the good fight ... I have kept the faith ...". Would you say that is the same as 'perseverance of the saints'? And is it different in any way from eternal security?
     

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