Cooperation with Catholics

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Gold Dragon, Apr 4, 2005.

  1. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Messages:
    3,837
    Likes Received:
    3
    In another thread, I commented that I support an organization like YFC that works in cooperation with Catholics and Pastor Larry responded with this. I know many on these boards will disagree with my position on this issue, but I'll try to explain it in way that you may (or may not) understand.

    First of all, I know many have made the claim that Catholics do not preach the gospel of Christ. That could mean a lot of things and I think it is important to define what we mean by the gospel of Christ because I believe that Catholics do preach the gospel of Christ.

    Obviously there are differences in teaching between Catholic and the typical Baptist understanding and both sides launch accusations of "heresy" at each other over those differences. Those differences are valid concerns that seem incompatible, need to be discussed and corrections need to be made in both the Catholic perspective and the Protestant one.

    I believe that working together on the things we have in common, like having folks turn from sin to understand the saving grace of Christ, will help us positively influence each other towards greater biblical orthodoxy.

    I know many of you disagree with me because of the Doctrine of Separation and I hope we can civilly discuss those disagreements in a Christ-like manner that will bring glory to Christ. [​IMG]
     
  2. Scott J

    Scott J
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    Messages:
    8,462
    Likes Received:
    0
    I share some values with Catholics. Regrettably, we do not share faith in the same Christ.

    The Catholic teachings on salvation fail to meet the biblical standard. They are teaching a false Christ and a false religion. People saved within the RCC are in spite of rather than because of the the teachings of that church.

    I do not see any way of reconciling "salvation by grace through faith" with Catholic teachings that a person must pay for their own sins and follow the extra-biblical rituals of their dogma.

    If there were no other differences, this one would be way more than enough.

    Cooperate with people who happen to be Catholics on political efforts concerning abortion or obscenity? Sure. Cooperate with Catholics on any matter of religion or outreach? Absolutely not.
     
  3. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Messages:
    3,837
    Likes Received:
    3
    Salvation by grace through faith is also a Catholic teaching.

     
  4. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is true and it is wrong. They miss the word "alone." Salvation in Scripture is grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Catholics have, for 1500 years, compromised that gospel. They do not preach the gospel of Christ as a church. They teach that salvation is merited by works, by infused grace. They have in fact condemned the biblical gospel in Trent.

    People seem to forget the Reformation. IN those days, everyone recognized this divide. And the truth is that we haven't changed and they haven't changed. Why do people think that since neither side has changed, we suddenly agree? We don't. We do not preach the same gospel.
     
  5. Scott J

    Scott J
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    Messages:
    8,462
    Likes Received:
    0
    If my understanding is correct, the Catholic conception of "grace" is not the same as ours. Do they not hold that "grace" is something dispensed by the RC Church?
     
  6. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,398
    Likes Received:
    0
    The question is not grace it is the Catholic idea of how and by whom grace is bestowed. The catholic church teaches that the church bestows grace and grace is received through keeping the sacraments. Biblical churches understand that grace comes from God through Jesus.

    Bro Tony

    Using the same term does not mean they are saying the same thing.
     
  7. Scott J

    Scott J
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    Messages:
    8,462
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dragon, What is the nature and purpose of the 7 rites, confession, pennance, and purgatory?
     
  8. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Messages:
    3,837
    Likes Received:
    3
    This is true and it is wrong. They miss the word "alone." Salvation in Scripture is grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Catholics have, for 1500 years, compromised that gospel. They do not preach the gospel of Christ as a church. They teach that salvation is merited by works, by infused grace. They have in fact condemned the biblical gospel in Trent.

    People seem to forget the Reformation. IN those days, everyone recognized this divide. And the truth is that we haven't changed and they haven't changed. Why do people think that since neither side has changed, we suddenly agree? We don't. We do not preach the same gospel.
    </font>[/QUOTE]That pesky little word, alone. [​IMG]

    If by faith alone, you mean that works do not merit justification, then Catholics would agree with you (my above quotations). This is the usage that Luther used.

    If by faith alone, you mean that works do not accompany faith as a result of "living faith", then Catholics would disagree with you in obedience to James 2:24.

    I think both Catholics and Protestants should be in agreement that this second understanding of faith alone is not biblical.
     
  9. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Messages:
    3,837
    Likes Received:
    3
    While Baptism is the tricky one because Catholics consider it a sacramental work that coincides with justification (I'll leave this one for later), the other sacraments are part of the process of grace extended through sanctification which protestants should agree involves works.

    Purgatory is also another issue difficult to reconcile but I don't think it is a deal breaker.
     
  10. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Messages:
    3,837
    Likes Received:
    3
    People seem to forget the Reformation. IN those days, everyone recognized this divide. And the truth is that we haven't changed and they haven't changed. Why do people think that since neither side has changed, we suddenly agree? We don't. We do not preach the same gospel. </font>[/QUOTE]I think both sides have changed a lot. 500 years can do that.

    Neither side has said, we were completely wrong and you were completely right, but both sides are starting to see some wrongs of their own positions and some rights of the other position
    as both move towards greater biblical orthodoxy.
     
  11. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Messages:
    3,837
    Likes Received:
    3
     
  12. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    Catholics speak out of both sides of their mouth. Their catechism says one thing on one page and another on another page.

    The Catholics do not believe that Jesus died for their sins and paid the full penalty for their sins.
    If they did, then why would they believe in purgatory, where they themselves have to pay a price of suffering to be "purged" for their sins? Was not the sufferings of Christ sufficient for them?
    DHK
     
  13. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Messages:
    3,837
    Likes Received:
    3
    The Catholic connection between Baptism and forgiveness of sins is one that is difficult to reconcile with the Baptist position. However, Catholics do believe that Christ's sacrifice paid the full price of their sins.

    Regarding purgatory, you misunderstand how it functions in the Catholic faith. It doesn't "save" or justify anyone.

    I don't believe in Purgatory but I just want to clarify its position in the Catholic faith.
     
  14. Scott J

    Scott J
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    Messages:
    8,462
    Likes Received:
    0
    While Baptism is the tricky one because Catholics consider it a sacramental work that coincides with justification (I'll leave this one for later),</font>[/QUOTE] No it isn't. It isn't "tricky" at all. It is either the correct view of the biblical means of salvation or it is not.

    Baptist doctrine (IMO the biblical doctrine) and RCC doctrine are mutually exclusive on this... and rightly so. One or the other is correct but both cannot be.
    Yes it is a deal breaker because of why purgatory must exist in the Catholic economy of salvation. According to their sotierology, Christ's death did not pay for all of their sins. They believe we have to pay for our own.

    The rest of your post was simply a smokescreen answer. It sounded good but argue that good works and the rituals of the church are not necessary and that regeneration is all that is required for salvation. Your regular Catholic will reject that as a means of salvation. Most conservative Catholics will say that there is no salvation outside "the Church".

    You also really didn't deal with the 7 rites or sacraments. Mass for instance. One of the ways the church supposedly infuses grace is by communion in which transubstantiation takes place. They believe that Christ is effectively re-sacrificed. This is part of their system of salvation.

    BTW, most IFB's I know teach that we have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved- Regenerated, sanctified, then finally glorified. However, the source you cited conveniently skips over the fact that the first rite of baptism is how they believe initial regeneration takes place as a person is officially accepted, not by Christ, but by the authority of the Church.
     
  15. Scott J

    Scott J
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    Messages:
    8,462
    Likes Received:
    0
    If Christ's sacrifice paid for our sins then penance and purgatory are unnecessary.
     
  16. Scott J

    Scott J
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    Messages:
    8,462
    Likes Received:
    0
    There wasn't anything unclear about it. In fact, the statement you used above points out where their view on salvation really does differ from ours and IS a works based system.

    They claim on the one hand that initial grace is all it takes to save but then on the other that if one is not "pure" enough then they cannot enter heaven. In other words, Christ blood is not sufficient to cover all of our sins. Some sins must be worked off by human merit.
     
  17. IfbReformer

    IfbReformer
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2002
    Messages:
    708
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually Luther in the begining of his ministry used the usage you speak of, but almost all scholars who have studied his life she a shift in his belief that works cannot be used at all for assurance.

    Consider these quotes from Luther at the end of his life from his commentary on Galatians:

    Here is a quote from an article on this subject

    Here is the full article
    http://www.fuller.edu/ministry/berean/luther.htm

    I totally disagree with the author of the article who thinks Luthers move to divorce works from assurance was wrong. He was absolutely right! He saw he was still to close to Roman Catholisim - praise God.

    IFBReformer
     
  18. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Messages:
    3,837
    Likes Received:
    3
    A little more clarification on Purgatory that should help protestants understand its function in Catholicism. For them, purgatory is where God's purifying discipline can happen, not redemption for any sins.

    I haven't forgotten about your Baptism point and it is an important one.
     
  19. Scott J

    Scott J
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    Messages:
    8,462
    Likes Received:
    0
    A little more clarification on Purgatory that should help protestants understand its function in Catholicism. For them, purgatory is where God's purifying discipline can happen, not redemption for any sins.</font>[/QUOTE] False dichotomy.

    God's wrath for the sins of the redeemed was poured out on Jesus. If there needs to be further punishment or "purifying" as you put it then what Christ did was ineffective.

    Chastisment is for the direct purpose of making someone useful to the purpose of God- that is a concern that cannot be separated from our mortal lives.
    The writer contradicts himself in these two sentences. One must suffer punishment after death before entering the eternal abode on the one hand then on the other he claims it is not referring to the eternal punishment of sin.

    BTW, my thanks to the author for being honest enough to use the word "punishment". That one word affirms what we contend- Catholics do not believe that Christ's sacrifice was "once for all".

    The citations you are using are nothing more than word games... rhetorical spin.
     
  20. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Messages:
    3,837
    Likes Received:
    3
    I have a confession to make before I continue on this topic. The Baptist position on symbolic Baptism is one that I have been struggling with, and symbolic Communion too. I have not felt the need to denounce those positions yet and I do not subscribe to the Catholic understanding of these things. But my honest attempts at studying the Biblical passages regarding those two ordinances and prayerful meditation on them have lead me to question how biblical these positions really are.

    I understand the rationale behind why these positions were taken by Baptists and the abuses they were trying to avoid. However, I also get the feeling that we threw the baby out with the bathwater on this one. I'll just address Baptism and leave Communion for later.

    The biblical association of baptism with the forgiveness of sins is undeniable.

    NASB - Mark 16:16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

    NASB - Acts 2:28 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    NASB - Acts 22:16 Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.

    There are other passages that suggest something more than mere symbolism happening in baptism.

    NASB - Romans 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

    NASB - Galatians 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

    NASB - 1 Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

    At the same time it is faith in Christ and not any work or action of our own that justifies, something Catholics believe as well. So what actually goes on in Baptism? Let me know when you figure it out. I'm ok with not having all the answers at this point in time and for now, I simply want to have a biblical understanding of Baptism that includes an honest look at above passages and not one that defends this doctrine or that doctrine.

    Regarding the Catholic perspective, I found this article to add some insight even though I disagree with many of his points.

     

Share This Page

Loading...