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Featured Coptic Christians

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by freeatlast, Jun 1, 2012.

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  1. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    So do you think that Baptists are preaching the wrong message about how to be saved or is there more then one way?
     
    #21 freeatlast, Jun 3, 2012
  2. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    I'm saying that Baptists are not right about everything, and other denominations are not wrong about everything!
     
    #22 Michael Wrenn, Jun 3, 2012
  3. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    So in regards to how to be saved and what the Coptics teach on the matter do you think that Baptists are preaching the wrong message about how to be saved or is there more then one way?
     
    #23 freeatlast, Jun 3, 2012
  4. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Every denomination believes that faith in Jesus is necessary; none believe you can work your way into heaven without faith. So why can't certain Baptists just shut up and stop calling other Christians apostates.
     
    #24 Michael Wrenn, Jun 3, 2012
  5. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus Well-Known Member
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    Faith is, regardless of tradition, necessary. Of all the catholic doctrine I've read there is a heavy emphasis on the role of faith in salvation.

    Now we (that is me and catholics) will disagree about the efficacy of justifying faith, but there is still faith.

    The point of the Romans passage is that there is, in salvation, the expression of faith which unifies all. One doesn't need to assent to a formal creedal statement to be saved. One doesn't need to be able to deliver a point by point systematic theology to be saved. One simply needs grace from faith that is of not of ourselves.
     
    #25 preachinjesus, Jun 3, 2012
  6. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus Well-Known Member
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    I wasn't speaking about other faiths or how they have endured persecution. My point was that in the midst of persecution you often find out who the real Christians are and who are the marginal ones. If the history of Christianity is a proof of anything it is that in the midst of the persecution the Church is purified and what remains are true believers. :)

    As a follow up point, then I cannot doubt the salvation of anyone claiming Christ who is remaining faithful to His call and Church in the midst of violent persecutions.
     
    #26 preachinjesus, Jun 3, 2012
  7. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    I don't know who called anyone apostates. However let me ask again.
    Since the Coptics teach one way to be saved and Baptists another do you think that Baptists are preaching the wrong message about how to be saved or is there more then one way?
     
    #27 freeatlast, Jun 3, 2012
  8. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    So if works are involved can it be called faith?
     
    #28 freeatlast, Jun 3, 2012
  9. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus Well-Known Member
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    It's a common Baptist misstatement to say catholics believe in works based salvation. Go read Vatican II and the discussions following the Council of Trent, then toss in some patristics, maybe even read some recent encyclicals from Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI) and you'll see that faith is the doorway to salvation. The same with the Coptics. Faith is the doorway.

    Now what they do with it once you're in the door...well...that's where we simply disagree.

    But again, I don't see the NT saying that people need to be able to articulate the Baptist theology of justification to be saved. In its simplest terms it is "Lord Jesus Christ! Save me!"
     
    #29 preachinjesus, Jun 3, 2012
  10. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Then you haven't read enough.

    As to your second point, prove to me that the Coptic Church doesn't believe that faith is necessary to salvation, or cease with the falsehood.
     
    #30 Michael Wrenn, Jun 3, 2012
  11. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    [SIZE=+0]Friend I used to attend Catholic and I know what they teach. They call the sacraments, sacraments of faith and that they are required for salvation. One of those sacraments is Baptism which they state clearly must happen for salvation. "And the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The Lord himself affirms that baptism is necessary for salvation [John 3:5]. . . Not only that every time they take the bread and wine they are getting saved again.
    http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-necessity-of-baptism

    You must keep in mind that Catholics do not call themselves Christians as a rule. The RCC has also now accepted Christians, non Catholics as being saved even if they do not go through the catechisms, but they are not full believers. We are sub believers being shielded under the RCC teachings. They are the true church and we are the sub church allowed in because we are sincere even though we do not obey the way they have set up.. A Catholic still has to follow all the sacraments to be saved and be a Catholic or full and true believer.

    So the question is are the Coptics teaching the truth about salvation or are the Baptists or is there more then one way?
    [/SIZE]
     
    #31 freeatlast, Jun 3, 2012
  12. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    I did not say they did not claim faith. I was asking you if their belief as to what faith is was the same as Baptists and if not then are there two ways to get saved. The proof is in the links I gave at the beginning. Here is what they say;

    Good works which are the fruits of faith: The believer leans on the Lord's breast and asks for the work of His divine grace under the guidance of the Holy Spirit; these works are necessary to our salvation.
    http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/church3-2.html

    Also they teach;

    1. Practical divine grace: If teaching the divine grace is the heart and center of the Gospel, we attain this grace through the sacraments, as it is written in the Holy Bible:
    In the sacrament of Baptism, we attain the rebirth, not of our own merit nor by a human hand but by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3-5; Tit. 3:5). We also receive God's adoption (Gal. 3:26, 27), attain the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) and sanctification (Eph. 5:25-26).
    Through "Chrism" (Mayroun)we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit who teaches us, guides us and sanctifies us, so that we may attain the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ (Acts 8:17; 19:5,6).
    Through penance and confession, the Holy Spirit grants us the remission of sins (Matt. 16:19).

    1. In the Coptic rite of Baptism there are two essential lines; denying Satan and the acceptance of God's work. In other words, in baptism the believer is transferred from being belonged to Satan through subjection to his works, to receiving God's adoption, and being His. He denies the kingdom of the devil to receive within himself that of Christ, turning towards the east, where the sun of Righteousness shines, instead of the west, which is a symbol of darkness.

    Hence the sacraments, in their rites seek for man's salvation and his receiving God's adoption, lift him up to the heavenly life to the bread of angels, that he may obtain participation in the eternal glories. Sacraments are the fulfillment of Gospel blessings.
    http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/church3-3.html

    Is that what baptists teach is necessary for our salvation or is there more then one way?
     
    #32 freeatlast, Jun 3, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 3, 2012
  13. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Both teach that faith is necessary to salvation.
     
    #33 Michael Wrenn, Jun 3, 2012
  14. Fred's Wife

    Fred's Wife Member

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    I read through a good portion of this article and all I see is "works salvation"/baptismal regeneration/salvation through the sacraments. Very similar to Roman Catholicism.

    Coptics' salvation bears no resemblance to salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone...which is what the Bible teaches and what most Baptists believe.
     
    #34 Fred's Wife, Jun 3, 2012
  15. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    Both use the term, But both have different teachings on what faith is, so do Baptists teach the same as Coptics?
     
    #35 freeatlast, Jun 3, 2012
  16. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    The point is, neither group believes that works will save you; they both believe that faith is necessary.

    The bottom line and common denominator with all Christian denominations is that they believe faith in Jesus is what saves you.

    So, do you contend that Coptics teach that faith is not necessary for salvation, that we are saved by works and not by faith? Do you deny that Coptics are Christians?
     
    #36 Michael Wrenn, Jun 4, 2012
  17. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    Did you read what they teach?

    Also they teach;

    1. Practical divine grace: If teaching the divine grace is the heart and center of the Gospel, we attain this grace through the sacraments, as it is written in the Holy Bible:
    In the sacrament of Baptism, we attain the rebirth, not of our own merit nor by a human hand but by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3-5; Tit. 3:5). We also receive God's adoption (Gal. 3:26, 27), attain the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) and sanctification (Eph. 5:25-26).
    Through "Chrism" (Mayroun)we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit who teaches us, guides us and sanctifies us, so that we may attain the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ (Acts 8:17; 19:5,6).
    Through penance and confession, the Holy Spirit grants us the remission of sins (Matt. 16:19).

    1. In the Coptic rite of Baptism there are two essential lines; denying Satan and the acceptance of God's work. In other words, in baptism the believer is transferred from being belonged to Satan through subjection to his works, to receiving God's adoption, and being His. He denies the kingdom of the devil to receive within himself that of Christ, turning towards the east, where the sun of Righteousness shines, instead of the west, which is a symbol of darkness.

    Hence the sacraments, in their rites seek for man's salvation and his receiving God's adoption, lift him up to the heavenly life to the bread of angels, that he may obtain participation in the eternal glories. Sacraments are the fulfillment of Gospel blessings.
    http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/t...church3-3.html
     
    #37 freeatlast, Jun 4, 2012
  18. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Are the Coptics Christians or not? Do they accept Jesus by faith or not?
     
    #38 Michael Wrenn, Jun 4, 2012
  19. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    That is the question.
     
    #39 freeatlast, Jun 4, 2012
  20. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    They obviously do, but you seem to have a problem with them not additionally believing as you do.
     
    #40 Michael Wrenn, Jun 5, 2012
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