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Cornerstone University lifts dance ban

Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges & Seminaries' started by Greg Linscott, Oct 7, 2004.

  1. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    So you would equate Christians dancing as the same as the disco clubs where there is drinking and drugs? I hope you think better than that of the young people and especially those who teach them.

    If that is the only thing that comes to your mind when you think of dancing then you haven’t seen many good examples of Christians having fun and discipling others in the same people. You do know the poorest example of Jesus is the average lukewarm believer who never disciples anyone and seldom if ever shares their faith.

    How will we as adults relate issues back to scripture such as Eccl. 3 and not avoid them? I have attended a Messianic congregation that has dancing in their worship service. For them it is important. The service was three hours long with a sermon that was about 75 minutes. Those people knew their Bible well. Most of them had not been believers all that long but they were intense about following God and sharing their faith. Many of their Jewish families shunned them because they were now believers in Jesus. But we plead with people and give them prizes asking them, “Won’t you please read your Bible.” Too often we approach the Bible as something we need to read rather than being excited about knowing God through His word. People know the difference. For two summers when I was a young college student I asked a man in the church if I could meet with him regularly. He exuded Jesus. He talked about Jesus with others as though nothing else mattered. When we were working he would sing hymns and listen to tapes. I had never seen anyone like that before. I wanted to be like that. He was a builder. Probably the best in the area too. He was a man people trusted to do the job right and for the price he said he would. Because of him I ended up doing the same thing with the same high ideals and ethics. He taught me to be a person of high moral character and ethical standards. He also taught me to be a person of my word and have integrity. I saw it in him every day in every place and with every person. Even to this day the memories of him go with me. When I face decisions it is like he is still standing there. He even helped me start my own business. That meant I would no longer be his employee. He even recommended me many times to others. He loaned me tools I didn’t have. As a result I developed a thriving business. At his funeral when he died they had to turn people away and to stand outside to listen on a loudspeaker. The local lumberyard shut down for the funeral. The mayor was there. Many others were there whom he had witnessed to.

    Everyone should know the difference between things that are fun and good, and things that are fun and bad. If one reads Eccl. 3 and knows that David danced before the Lord how will we help them to understand by word and example what that means?

    Scripture does not say dancing is wrong. In fact there are examples of dancing. Another is when Jesus turned the water into wine. Was Jesus, the Son of God wrong in doing that if wine is wrong? We just open the door for distrust by young people if we come up with man-made rules not in agreement with scripture. Why do you think so many see the games their leaders are playing and leave their respective churches? When was the last time you were quiet and listened to young people talk with each other. The last time I heard some young people talk not long ago they were talking about the issue of the death penalty. These were eighth graders. What a great opportunity we have to give ‘em the straight stuff instead of a bunch of religious nonsense.

    Is dancing inherently wrong? No. People don’t condemn the internet, but they must instruct their children about the things that are junk and why they are harmful to their mental and spiritual health. Many would not consider taking their child to a meat packing plant for fear it might be too much to see. But they will turn them loose on the internet.

    Young people want reasons for their faith in agreement with scripture not a bunch of man-made rules that circumvent the Holy Spirit. Now the question is how will we do that at a time when so many religious answers are hollow and people are looking for the real thing. We are living in a time when people are tired of the cliches and quick answers; they want real answers with conviction not what someone else said. They want answers in accordance with scripture. If we are going to teach and say we believe the Bible is our final authority then we must teach people in accordance with scripture showing them it as our final authority too.
     
  2. Greg Linscott

    Greg Linscott <img src =/7963.jpg>

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    One encourgaing observation in perusing their website- Dr. Bill Smallman of Baptist Mid-Missions is listed as part of their adjunct faculty. BMM has been one of the bright spots in the GARBC circle, IMHO. Don't really know much else about the school, though.
     
  3. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    GB,

    Boy, you took off on a rabbit trail there. First, notice that I described a very particular kind of dancing ... sexualized dancing that involves close body contact. You are kidding yourself if you think young people can involve themselves in that kind of activity and remain holy and pure before God. Depravity still affects the holiest of people.

    You bring up the dancing of David. Many good solid arguments have been given here and other places as to why that is not a good example of this. David caused people to be offended by it. We are never told that God accepted it. And David fell into moral problems in his life. I am not attributing that to dancing in the least. I am showing that even godly people have sexual issues in their life. Feeding that lust in young people is not holy and it cannot in any way be attributed to discipleship.

    Why do you think discipleship has to involve this kind of stuff? It really seems you took off on a rabbit trail there. I agree with you completely about discipleship. I do it all the time myself. And never one time has it involved dancing. I don't even know where that came from. I have been around many fun, discipling, holy Christians and never once has it involved dancing. That is simply a non sequitur on your part.

    You bring up Jesus and wine as if we were talkign about that. I will only reiterate that I do not say drinking wine is a sin. I think it is unwise and unnecessary. I think it opens the door to problems. But having said that, if you want to drink the kind of wine they did in the first century, have at it. But that has nothing to do with this thread.

    I agree that we do not need man made rules. I agree we do not need quick and trite answers. But the Bible's teaching that we should not feed our flesh, that we should not put ourselves in the place of temptation, that we should be holy, and that we should pursue God are not man made rules and they are not compatible with the sexualized dancing, close body contact, and dance club atmosphere. Our young people need to be taught discernment and a big part of that teaching is the consistency of life and action with the word of God.

    So you would equate Christians dancing as the same as the disco clubs where there is drinking and drugs? I hope you think better than that of the young people and especially those who teach them.
     
  4. Dave G.

    Dave G. New Member

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    Dr. Bob: "Having visiting profs from Dallas or TEDS or Westminister is NOT proof of going neo!"

    I agree completely. My curiosity was aroused last week specifically because this fellow's view of women in ministry did not seem to jibe at all with the portrayal of NBS in the school's catalog .

    Thanks again for looking into it. If you would not mind, I would appreciate knowing what in your view has gone wrong at BBS/Clarks Summit. My only knowledge of them is gleaned from Rod Decker's (very helpful) website regarding Koine Greek tools.
     
  5. rivers1222

    rivers1222 Member

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    Dr. Bob and Pastor Larry,
    Tell me the truth. You guys never did the stroll in high school? Not trying to be provocative here but I never really thought of high school or college dancing to be sexual until about the late 60's. Thanks.
     
  6. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Pastor Larry:

    If I understood you right you really misunderstood what I wrote.

    Without getting into a long discourse about why I would disagree with you in many ways. I will just ask you one simple question: How does your view of dancing stack up against Eccl. 3 when it says there is a time to dance? Was God mistaken or wrong when he inspired that wording. If you are going to remain true to God's word then you must agree with Him and not what your biases tell you or if you feel comfortable or not. If you take a blanket no on any kind of dancing then is that not going against God's word where it says there is a time to dance.

    What you said in "Our young people need to be taught discernment and a big part of that teaching is the consistency of life and action with the word of God."I agree with 100 percent. That is the point I am making.

    We need to teach people to set the boundaries where God sets them. When we do that, we teach them to listen to God and be obedient to his word. If you tell a young person not to dance and they read what is written in Eccl. 3 what will you tell them?
     
  7. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    My question is Why do you think dancing in Ecc 3 is the sexualized dancing of today that has close body contact among unmarried people in nightclubs?

    I have not ignored that passage. I am here referring to a specific kind of dancing. If a person read Ecc 3 and asks me what it means I will tell them. It means there is time for celebration, as is clear from the contrast with mourning. It doesn't mean you go out and get sexual with someone. It has no reference to the kind of dancing that goes on in modern dance clubs. That would be a gross misuse of the text.

    In some of these issues, the text of Scripture is cimpletely misused to try to sustain a personal preference. I think that is what is being done here. We are so concerned about not appearing to rigid that the text gets used to support something it was never intended to support.
     
  8. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    My question is Why do you think dancing in Ecc 3 is the sexualized dancing of today that has close body contact among unmarried people in nightclubs?

    I don’t think I ever said it was. That’s what I thought you were saying. I thought you were saying that all dancing was sexual in nature and I would disagree.

    If a person read Ecc 3 and asks me what it means I will tell them. It means there is time for celebration, as is clear from the contrast with mourning.

    I agree 100 %


    In some of these issues, the text of Scripture is completely misused to try to sustain a personal preference. I think that is what is being done here. We are so concerned about not appearing to rigid that the text gets used to support something it was never intended to support.

    That is not what I am getting at. What I am getting at is the proper use of any activity. We should draw the line where scripture does, and not invent rules to alter scripture. I assumed that what you were doing was to try and explain your comfortable position while be against what scripture says. I see nothing wrong with and a lot right about dancing and having fun at activities that are supervised and the participants are expected to behave in a Christlike manner. Students will behave well if properly supervised and they see fine examples in the adults who are around them. I have taken students on long field trips with no problems. But I was strict with them before we left. I had them sign a paper that if they were caught with anything illegal they would be brought to the nearest police station and they would be responsible for their own transportation home. When I was a student in college with a parachurch organization we were told to try and leave whatever place we visited better than we found it. Students will do well if we expect them to do well within the boundaries we set. But we must hold them accountable and they must know we will follow through. What I find most often is that the students who get in trouble are the children of parents who do not follow through on discipline.
     
  9. Greg Linscott

    Greg Linscott <img src =/7963.jpg>

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    Let's make something clear here- Bible College dance bans were not imposed to guard against the evils of "celebratory dancing." The students quoted in these articles aren't campaigning for that issue.

    Let's be frank- the lifting of the ban was to allow couple-type dancing. Otherwise, it's not an issue for most young people. The motivation here was not so the Cornerstone basketball team could finally "do the hokey pokey" after a particularly staisfying win over Aquinas College. The student body isn't yearning to take up tap, ballet, or even waltzes. It is not so they can better express themselves spiritually, or add a new dimension to their worship.

    You can argue semantics all you want, but this is a decided move to give young people what they want, and what they want is to be able to indulge in worldly practices such as club-type, couples-oriented dancing without the condemnation of those in spiritual leadership. What is so sad is that those in leadership are giving them what they want, rather than what they need.
     
  10. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    I don't think so. I strolled from class to class, but I assume that is some kind of dance ... I am showing my age here probably.

    You would have to ask Bob about that ... although he may not want to answer. That is ancient history to me, virtually prehistoric.

    But I do think, seriously, that dancing has become very sexualized starting in the 60s with the free sex/free love movement (a misnomer if there ever was one--there was certainly nothing free about it; it is extracted as high a price on our culture as anything ever has).

    I do agree with Greg that this was not lifted for the kind of dancing we see in Scripture. And that is a problem.
     
  11. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    I agree. One only has to look at his own church to see promiscuity. Josh McDowell writes in one of his books that 25 percent of the kids in our youth groups are shacking up. They are not putting together the Sunday message and the Bible and connecting the dots in life throughout the week. They view each item in their life as separate from the other. Unless you get right down to their level and reach them where they stand it is likely they will apply what you are trying to teach. We may not like it but it is a reality of today. Just because it makes sense to us does not mean it makes sense to them. They are growing up in a very different world than their parents. They do not live in a world of absolutes as we know it. Most everything is relative to them. They are also growing up in a world of protective parents who do everything for them and give them money. I see students whose parents are paying their college bill while they are playing. the majority of top students are from other countries. Their view of the world is it's an easy life. If you talk with them they think life will be easy with lots of money to go around. For several years now life has been good. The U.S. has had a good deconomy. People have more discretionary money than ever before.
     
  12. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    "The motivation here was not so the Cornerstone basketball team could finally "do the hokey pokey" after a particularly staisfying win over Aquinas College. The student body isn't yearning to take up tap, ballet, or even waltzes. It is not so they can better express themselves spiritually, or add a new dimension to their worship."
    "
    That raises interesting questions. Were these things forbidden under the ban on dancing?
    Were the people who launched the rule against dancing opposed to ballet, waltzes and the Hokey Pokey?
     
  13. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    I hope so ... just out of mere common decency and respect. But then, there's no accounting for taste ...
     
  14. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    I suspect they opposed ballet because it is a form of theatre and they opposed waltzing because they saw it as very sexualized.
    I fear that the Hokey Pokey was considered acceptable.
     
  15. Greg Linscott

    Greg Linscott <img src =/7963.jpg>

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    You still are missing the point. Whether or not these things are acceptable, it was not the focus of the original rule, and it is not why students were pushing to have the rule dropped.
     
  16. paidagogos

    paidagogos Active Member

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    Good for you, Dr. Bob! Tell it like it is.
     
  17. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    I've been studying the history of when some of these prohibitions took place. It is interesting to note that dancing, playing cards, etc. weren't always seen as "sinful" by orthodox, Bible-believing Christians.

    I wonder if we aren't just a little bit uptight! eh?

    Also, if things are in and of themselves not sinful, but we have defined them to be, is it any wonder that we have such little influence in the world. We separate when we don't have to, and the truly important issues (like sexual immorality) never gain a hearing because we have lost the right to be heard by our own odd behavior.

    The world is right to look at us and say, "Who would want what they have?" We are miserly, bitter, fault-finding, joy-killing, knit-picking, divisive, fellowship-splitting, music-criticizing, dark age "church" people.

    Can God really be glorified when we hold each other in suspicion and judgment?
     
  18. foxrev

    foxrev New Member

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    Paul33:

    The dropping of the Dance Rule is a further proof of the "World In The Church" just as it was in Thyatira.

    We forget that these bodies are NOT OURS. They belong to a HOLY GOD in Heaven.

    "Up tight?" You bet and rightly so. We are, after all, to "hate the evil and love the good."

    May God send an awakening to our self-centered, man-centered, do what I want to do "Christianity."
     
  19. aefting

    aefting New Member

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    When is it that you think that Christians put these things on their taboo list?

    Andy
     
  20. foxrev

    foxrev New Member

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    Paul33:

    You have been studying the wrong books. Every revival in America produced a "List" of evils in their culture that Christians did not do. That included sensual dancing, alchohol etc.

    There is a growing similarity to Old Testament days to what many today are advocating: "Every man did that which was right in HIS OWN eyes."

    Grab an old Methodist book on polity from the early 20th century. You will find some amazing "Lists" that would be laughed at today - because Methodism has almost completely destroyed the authority of the Bible in their lives.

    These lists come as a result for a desire for personal holiness - separation from any thing that is evil. How about it. Are we not declared so by God, yet He calls us to live a Holy life. Does not God say in Romans 6 that He forbids that we should sin?

    You can re-label every thing as being good and say that there is nothing intrinsically evil in any thing. Sure. There is nothing intrinsically evil in a Golden Calf and you can even say that you could use it as a "Feast unto the LORD." Israel did. They did what they pleased to do and said it was ok and even had the blessing of their "Priest" Aaron. So what was the big problem with it?

    Dancing, "happiness" all over the place and that old miserable Moses had to come and break up the "Party" they were having. Man, what a legalist he was. They would have been a lot happier out there in the wilderness if it hadn't been for him. What was the problem with the dancing and the revelling and the music that sounded like "War" going on? Of course, our music today, as advanced and modern as we are would NEVER sound like that. Oh no. We have progressed and come so far from those "Old Fashioned Days."

    Holiness Unto Our GOD!

    The problem with Bible-Believing Christianity today is that we are looking for the boundaries according to the culture in which we live. We are looking for a "Specific Law" that says I can or cannot do a certain thing like gambling, smoking, drinking etc. This is a new form of LEGALISM, gentlemen. We need an Isaiah 5&6 vision of God and what is is like and be concerned about what he sees in our thoughts and how we are representing His Holiness in this world.

    Yes, we are divinely favored by God. Yet, God does not put His stamp of approval on every thing going on around us.

    God called Israel OUT of the World and today He still calls His people OUT of the World - the ekklesia! Holiness does not change, truth does not change, God does not change.

    "Be ye Holy"
     
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