Corporate Election stemming from Individual Election

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Mar 6, 2011.

  1. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    First lets define “corporate” election as God making a choice to deal with a group of people according to His purpose. Thus, whoever is “in the sphere” of His choice is chosen, and therefore anyone who enters that sphere becomes chosen or elect. The concept does not include a specific way to enter that sphere, so it is consistent with the Arminian idea that when a person sincerely puts their trust in Christ, they enter that sphere and become “elect” but corporate election does not preclude God’s choice rather than human choice as the means of entry. The means must be an additional stipulation.

    Secondly, it is a false dichotomy to say if God does sometimes choose to deal with a group for some purpose, that means He does not ever choose individuals for some related purpose. Corporate election does not require the denial of individual election, and individual election does not require the denial of corporate election.
    As we wade into the subject of corporate election, our first question might be, do we see in the Bible the notion of corporate election or individual election. The answer is both. As Dr. Daniel B. Wallace wrote, “Individual and corporate perspectives are intertwined in Paul.”

    Next, to paraphrase Dr. Wallace, “whether individual or corporate election is in view, the election is initiated by God and effected by God. Those who are chosen become what they were chosen for.” Judas was chosen to fulfill the betrayer prophecy, and that is what he became.

    Next can there be corporate election without first being individual election? The answer to this depends on how one understands the question. For example Abraham was chosen and then within his descendants the line leading to Christ was promised, the world being blessed through Abraham’s seed. So this would be an example of an individual election resulting in a corporate election. On the other hand God might choose to order the destruction of a people who are in the way of God’s people from fulfilling His purpose. So the answer is there can be corporate elections that are the consequence of individual elections, and there can be corporate elections not as a consequence of an election of some individual from the group.

    Which brings us to the crux of the matter, are we chosen corporately to salvation or individually to salvation? Dr. Wallace again correctly pointed out that Romans 8:33 clearly addresses charges being brought against individuals, saying if they are elect, no charge can be brought. Why not? Because they were chosen by God to salvation, and no plan of God can be thwarted. If all has been forgiven by God, no lesser entity can bring any charge. If you have a Presidential pardon, no state governor can charge you with the pardoned crime. Secondly, and this point was definitely not made by Dr. Wallace, if a person was chosen to salvation, they would be elect, but if they had not been saved, then a charge could be brought against them. Thus this verse requires that election to salvation and salvation go hand in hand with no delay between the two.
    And if as required by Romans 8:33, there is no delay, when are we chosen? Since many verses clearly teach before we were chosen, we were sinners; our individual election to salvation has to occur during our physical lifetime. John 15:19 says, God chose us out of the world, requiring we were in the midst of the world before being chosen. Second Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen through belief in the truth, requiring that we were alive and believing in Jesus when we were chosen. 1 Peter 2:9-10 says once we were not a people but now we are a people, requiring that we lived before becoming part of God’s chosen people, and also once we had not received mercy but now we have received mercy, again requiring that we lived without receiving mercy, and then we received mercy. Lastly we have God choosing the poor of this world, again requiring people being chosen while living, James 2:5.

    Once God puts us individually “in Christ” (1 Corinthians 1:30) we receive the blessings of God’s corporate election granted before creation. In Ephesians 1:3, Paul says God has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places “in Christ.” The spiritual blessings received were after we were “in Christ.” The first blessing listed by Paul is this: “Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him.” Thus this blessing was given or granted with His corporate election but received with His individual election of choosing to put us spiritually “in Christ.” Similarly in 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul says God saved us and called us to a Holy Calling, not because of works, but according to His purpose and grace, which was granted or given us in Christ Jesus – so we received the blessing of being saved and called to a Holy Calling when we were spiritually “in Christ” and not before. But when was the blessing given or granted to us? Before the foundation of the world when God chose us in Him corporately as the target group of His redemption plan.

    In summary, when God chose Christ to be His Redeemer, that was an individual election that resulted in a corporate election, everyone subsequently redeemed was chosen in Him, as the target group of His redemption plan, thus He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world corporately, but we enter that corporately elected group when God individually credits our faith as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 being our individual election to salvation.
     
    #1 Van, Mar 6, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 6, 2011
  2. canadyjd

    canadyjd
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    3,896
    Likes Received:
    0
    John 10 clearly makes the case for the election of specific people to salvation. The sheep hear the voice of their Master and follow Him. To follow Him is to have salvation. He calls them by name. Very specific call. Not a general call, a specific call.

    Jesus also lays down His life for these specific people, His sheep. Jesus also speaks of sheep among the Gentiles who "shall" hear His voice in the future and be saved. All the Father has given to Him will come when they are called. Jesus will lose none of them.

    Jesus tells the pharisees they do not believe because they are not of His sheep. Notice He doesn't say they are not His sheep because they don't believe (if He had, that might support your view)... no... He says the reason they don't believe is because they are not His sheep.

    Your view is not supported by John 10.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  3. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Reply to Canadyjd,

    My view is supported by all scripture including John 10.

    Clearly my view says what scripture says plainly, that God elects specific people, as 2 Thessalonians says God chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

    How does one enter the sheepfold? Through Christ. Same as 2 Thess 2:13 says. He calls His own sheep by name, and that would be everyone God has spiritually placed "in Christ."

    Lets consider the difference between folks who are not "of My Sheep" and folks who are "of My Sheep." If people who are "My Sheep" are those God has spiritually placed "in Christ" based on crediting their faith as righteousness, then what characteristic marks someone as "of My Sheep." Jesus tells us we must believe in the One who sent Him in order to believe in Him, so folks who rely on God and adhere to His word (rather than twist it for their own ends) are "of My Sheep." For example Christ did "works" that proved He was the Christ, because God's word had foretold, that the blind would see, the lame would walk, and the good news would be preached to the poor. So Jesus said, the works I do in My Father's name bear witness about Me, but you do not believe because you are not "of My Sheep."
     
  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,381
    Likes Received:
    728
    Van,
    Your re-writing of verses exists only in your mind and mr Wallaces.
    The scripture portray it differently.
    No one does this to begin with.What man does does not enable him to "become" elect.This is unscriptural philosophy,contrary to scripture.

    here is more error;
    Paul says it was before the world was.....you leave that out and speak about spheres, groups, corporate,etc. this is the same heresy that says God elects a train, but you must put yourself on the train to be elect..
    No....God saves who He wills to save.
     
    #4 Iconoclast, Mar 7, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 7, 2011
  5. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Reply to Iconoclast

    I have already addressed the fact that the blessing was given us when we were placed in Christ during our lifetime, but the blessing came from before creation when God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.

    Yes the Arminian view is in error, but the fact that some Arminians view it that way is true. All I did was say the Arminian view of entering the sphere was not necessary, instead one could enter the sphere by God putting us "in Him" during our lifetime.

    You seem not to have understood what Dr. Wallace said, election whether corporate or individual is done by God.

    You shouldl not call my views heresy and they certainly are not the same views as the Arminian view of putting ourselves on the train. God puts us in Christ, 1 Corinthians 1:30.
     

Share This Page

Loading...