Corporate Election

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Van, Oct 7, 2013.

  1. Van

    Van
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    First lets define “corporate” election as God making a choice to deal with a group of people according to His purpose. Thus, whoever is “in the sphere” of His choice is chosen, and therefore anyone who enters that sphere becomes chosen or elect. The concept does not include a specific way to enter that sphere, so it is consistent with the Arminian idea that when a person sincerely puts their trust in Christ, they enter that sphere and become “elect” but corporate election does not preclude denial of human choice as the means of entry. The means of entry must be an additional stipulation, and “corporate election” by itself does not specifically address how a person “enters” or becomes a member of the corporately elected group.
    Secondly, it is a false dichotomy to say if God does sometimes choose to deal with a group for some purpose, that means He does not ever choose individuals for some related purpose. Corporate election does not require the denial of individual election, and individual election does not require the denial of corporate election.
    As we wade into the subject of corporate election, our first question might be, do we see in the Bible the notion of corporate election or individual election. The answer is both. As Dr. Daniel B. Wallace wrote, “Individual and corporate perspectives are intertwined in Paul.”
    Next, to paraphrase Dr. Wallace, “whether individual or corporate election is in view, the election is initiated by God and effected by God. Those who are chosen become what they were chosen for.” Judas was chosen to fulfill the betrayer prophecy, and that is what he became.
    Next can there be corporate election without first being individual election? The answer to this depends on how one understands the question. For example Abraham was chosen and then within his descendants the line leading to Christ was promised, the world being blessed through Abraham’s seed. So this would be an example of an individual election resulting in a corporate election. On the other hand God might choose to order the destruction of a people who are in the way of God’s people from fulfilling His purpose. So the answer is there can be corporate elections that are the consequence of individual elections, and there can be corporate elections not as a consequence of an election of some individual from the group.
    Which brings us to the crux of the matter, are we chosen corporately to salvation or individually to salvation? Dr. Wallace again correctly pointed out that Romans 8:33 clearly addresses charges being brought against individuals, saying if they are elect, no charge can be brought. Why not? Because they were chosen by God to salvation, and no plan of God can be thwarted. If all has been forgiven by God, no lesser entity can bring any charge. If you have a Presidential pardon, no state governor can charge you with the pardoned crime. Secondly, and this point was definitely not made by Dr. Wallace, if a person was chosen to salvation, they would be elect, but if they had not been saved, then a charge could be brought against them. Thus this verse requires that election to salvation and salvation go hand in hand with no delay between the two.
    And if as required by Romans 8:33, there is no delay, when are we chosen? Since many verses clearly teach before we were chosen, we were sinners; our individual election to salvation has to occur during our physical lifetime. First, in 1 Corinthians 1:26-30, but God has chosen the foolish things of the word to shame the wise; and He chose those who are despised. Second Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen through belief in the truth, requiring that we were alive and believing in Jesus when we were chosen. 1 Peter 2:9-10 says once we were not a people but now we are a people, requiring that we lived before becoming part of God’s chosen people, and also once we had not received mercy but now we have received mercy, again requiring that we lived without receiving mercy, and then we received mercy. Lastly we have God choosing the poor of this world, but individuals who loved God again requiring people being chosen while living, James 2:5.
    Once God puts us individually “in Christ” (1 Corinthians 1:30) we receive the blessings of God’s corporate election granted before creation. In Ephesians 1:3, Paul says God has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places “in Christ.” The spiritual blessings received were after we were “in Christ.” The first blessing listed by Paul is this: “Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him.” Thus this blessing was given or granted with His corporate election but received with His individual election of choosing to put us spiritually “in Christ.” Similarly in 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul says God saved us and called us to a Holy Calling, not because of works, but according to His purpose and grace, which was granted or given us in Christ Jesus – so we received the blessing of being saved and called to a Holy Calling when we were spiritually “in Christ” and not before. But when was the blessing given or granted to us? Before the foundation of the world when God chose us in Him corporately as the target group of His redemption plan.
    In summary, when God chose Christ to be His Redeemer, that was an individual election that resulted in a corporate election, everyone subsequently redeemed was chosen in Him, as the target group of His redemption plan, thus He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world corporately, but we enter that corporately elected group when God individually credits our faith as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 being our individual election to salvation.
     
  2. Skandelon

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    Yes, and John 17 is another great example of God choosing individuals for the good of many others...

    20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
     
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    The Bible never uses the term "corporate" for election and teaches no such thing. We were chosen "in Christ" (because outside of Christ there is no salvation) before the world began thus before we made any choice of any kind as we did not exist. Election "TO" salvation is not based upon foreseen choice or actions of good or evil (Rom. 9:11). When God looked down upon mankind in general he saw not one that would seek after him and seeking is an act of the will (Psa. 14:2-3 with Rom. 3:10-12).

    There are only two types of election and neither are corporate. There is personal individual election to salvation (2 Thes. 2:9) and there is individual election to a certain calling or task whether a person is saved or lost (Judas/Cyrus; etc.).




    Wrong again! Abraham was chosen "in Christ" (Gal. 3:17) and only those "in Isaac" (Rom. 9:7) are the promised seed. Neither "in Christ" or "in Isaac" refer to any kind of corporate election. Redemptively "in Christ" is opposed to "in Adam" and refers to the only sphere of salvation as OUTSIDE of Christ there is no salvation for anyone (Jn. 14:6; Acts 4:12). This is no more corporate election than corporate salvation as neither exist. Salvation is always an individual personal application just as election "to" salvation is always an individual personal application.




    Absurdly rediculous! Look at the preceding context!!! Romans 8:32-39 is but the conclusion of Romans 8:28-31 that refers to God's covenant purpose of redemption prior to the world began (Eph. 1:4; 2 Tim. 1:7; 2 Thes. 2:13). 2 Thes. 2:13 explicitly states "chosen TO salvation" as you admit Romans 8:33 refers to and that did not occur during their life time but "from the foundation of the world."



    It also says when they were chose also! It was not during their life time but "from the foundation of the world"!

    Wrong again! The time of being chosen "in him" was before the world began and that is when God placed us in Christ according to His purpose of redemption (Eph. 1:4) thus being "predestinated" (Eph. 1:5) for that design "according to the good pleasure of His will" not our will (v. 11).

    The PLACE where we were blessed is "IN HEAVENLY PLACES" not on earth during our life time. The TIME we were chosen "in him" and "in heavenly places" was before the world began not during our life time.


    Complete the sentence!!!! We were called and saved IN TIME according to God's purpose given to us "in Christ" BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN! Only our calling and savlation occurred in our life time!


    I do not write this in any hope of changing your mind or with you in view but to simply expose this complete hogwash for what it is.
     
  4. Skandelon

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    Election in Christ is primarily corporate, i.e., an election of a people (Eph 1:4-5, 7, 9). The elect are called “the body of Christ” (4:12), “my church” (Mt 16:18), “a people belonging to God” (1 Pe 2:9), and the “bride” of Christ (Rev 19:7). Therefore, election is corporate and embraces individual persons only as they identify and associate themselves with the body of Christ, the true church (Eph 1:22-23; see Robert Shank, Elect in the Son, [Minneapolis: Bethany House Publishers]). This was true already of Israel in the OT (see Dt 29:18-21, note; 2Ki 21:14, note; see article on God’s Covenant with the Israelites, p. 298).
     
  5. Van

    Van
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    To deny that corporate election is found in scripture, pretty much invalidates need for a response. As we wade into the subject of corporate election, our first question might be, do we see in the Bible the notion of corporate election or individual election. The answer is both. As Dr. Daniel B. Wallace wrote, “Individual and corporate perspectives are intertwined in Paul.”

    And do not get ensnared with the false choice of either corporate or individual. The Biblical view includes both. As a consequence of God choosing individually Christ to be His Redeemer, He (corporately) chose us (the redeemed) in Him before the foundation of the world. However, each and every one of us was chosen individually and placed in Christ during our lifetime (the sanctifying work of the Spirit). 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
     
    #5 Van, Oct 7, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 7, 2013
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    Van
    .

    there is no biblical support for this false idea at all.
    .

    This is Pelagian fantasy

    because it is a fantasy

    yes...more religious fantasy

    11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

    No one..."becomes elect":laugh:

    because it does not exist:laugh:

    Sure...because you make it up as you go.:laugh:
    of course not....haha...it is only a fantasy.Is this Uncle van's storytime?

    Very confused thoughts here as you have departed from scriptural revelation.


    This is new age thought...it is rejected.

    This is incoherent and also is rejected.


    The rest of this silly post was pure TWADDLE....and is rejected.Going against clear scripture in open denial is always rejected.
     
  7. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Humor me for a moment. Suppose election "to" salvation is personal and individual. Would not the whole of all the elect still be called the "elect" anyway??? Certainly they would without any "corporate" nonsense at all!!

    The "body of Christ" and "the church" only complicate your theory not mine. Neither had any existence prior to the Lord's personal ministry on earth but election to salvation preexisted both and so they cannot be synonyms. To deny this is either to insist the "body of Christ" and "the church" existed since the garden of Eden (which scripture denies many places) or that there is salvation OUTSIDE of Christ (which scriptures deny) and/or that God did not choose some "in Christ" for salvation (which is nonsense and irrational).
     
  8. Yeshua1

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    God alredy knows those who belong to Him, for jesus died for their sins, to purchase them back to God by His death, and the Lord personally chosen those to be the elect found in Christ!

    The Body of christ is corprate in nature, bu the election to be found in her is individual in nature, based upon the Will of God!
     
  9. Skandelon

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    I'm sorry, but I'm not understanding what you are saying.
     
  10. Van

    Van
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    1) Yet another Calvinist claimed there is no support for corporate election, even though published Calvinists cite corporate election. Thus they run away from their own doctrine, posting absurdity on top of absurdity. Just google it folks.

    2) Somehow it is allowed for a Calvinist to refer to Arminianism as religious fantasy. Talk about a vicious attack on the majority of believers.

    3) Every individual that is placed spiritually in Christ (the sanctification by the Spirit) by God become God's elect. Before being chosen and set apart in Christ, not elect, after being chosen and set apart in Christ, elect!!!!

    4)Secondly, it is a false dichotomy to say if God does sometimes choose to deal with a group for some purpose, that means He does not ever choose individuals for some related purpose. Corporate election does not require the denial of individual election, and individual election does not require the denial of corporate election.

    5) See Dr. Wallace here:
    https://bible.org/article/corporate-election
     
  11. Yeshua1

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    So you would disagree with the Apsotle paul in regards to Predestination, and see the Plan predestined, not individuals themselves predestined to be confirmed due to the lord election of them Himself?
     
  12. Van

    Van
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    Why, Yeshua1 do you hate the truth? No matter what I say, you claim I say something else. Everyone God chooses and places spiritually in Christ is then predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ and eternal life in a glorified body. Too hard for you to grasp?

    1) Yet another Calvinist claimed there is no support for corporate election, even though published Calvinists cite corporate election. Thus they run away from their own doctrine, posting absurdity on top of absurdity. Just google it folks.

    2) Somehow it is allowed for a Calvinist to refer to Arminianism as religious fantasy. Talk about a vicious attack on the majority of believers.

    3) Every individual that is placed spiritually in Christ (the sanctification by the Spirit) by God become God's elect. Before being chosen and set apart in Christ, not elect, after being chosen and set apart in Christ, elect!!!!

    4)Secondly, it is a false dichotomy to say if God does sometimes choose to deal with a group for some purpose, that means He does not ever choose individuals for some related purpose. Corporate election does not require the denial of individual election, and individual election does not require the denial of corporate election.

    5) See Dr. Wallace here:
    https://bible.org/article/corporate-election

    Both individual and corporate election are found in scripture according to Dr. Wallace. The erroneous and absurd claims of wayward Calvinists do not even represent the published views of Calvinism. Go figure.
     
    #12 Van, Oct 9, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 9, 2013

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