Corporate&Individual Election

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Rippon, May 23, 2008.

  1. Rippon

    Rippon
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    I don't have time now in this first post to say a lot about this subject. But I imagine this thread will gradually become of interest to members of the BB.I'll add my comments along the way.

    Some say election in the Bible is only corporate. I say it is corporate and individual.Ephesians 1 is brought in by some to seemingly support their case that election is only corporate.I will acknowledge that it is primarily given a corporate drift. However, does that mean that individual election is automatically excluded?Of course not.

    A group is made up of individuals. God elects on a personal basis, not in a generalized lump of humanity.One can't logically separate the group from the individual.You can't have one (group) without the other (individual).

    There are many passages which speak of individuals and their election. I'll start off with 2 Peter 1:10:"Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble" (TNIV)

    Now the group didn't collectively ascertain whether or not they were in the faith -- to make sure they were indeed called and elected. They were to do this on an individual basis.
     
  2. Dr. L.T. Ketchum

    Dr. L.T. Ketchum
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    Election is BOTH corporate and individual. The point you are missing is that election is vocational, not salvational. No one is elected to be saved.

    This is the consistent use in the OT.
    http://www.disciplemakerministries.org/Pages/Dispensationalism/ElectionDefined.htm

    [FONT=&quot]The usual proof text offered to support election to salvation is II Thessalonians 2:13, which is taken completely out of context to support election to salvation.

    [FONT=&quot]But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: [/FONT][FONT=&quot] Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” (II Thessalonians 2:13)."[/FONT][/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]The salvation here is not salvation from hell, but salvation to glorification (v 15). The Church as a whole is chosen to this end; i.e. glorification.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]This is also the subject of predestination in Romans chapter 8. Lost people are NOT predestined to be saved. Saved people are predestined to be glorified.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]http://www.disciplemakerministries.org/Pages/Dispensationalism/Ordo.htm
    [/FONT]




     
  3. PK

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    AMEN!!!:thumbs:
     
  4. Amy.G

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    Yes you can. All Israel was elect, but not all Israel was saved.
     
  5. J.D.

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    Corporate election says that God elected Christ, not those individuals in Christ. But Romans 8 clearly says that God elected individuals.

    Israel after the flesh is better understood as the visible people of God, within which there exists an invisible people of God (those of the faith of faithful Abraham). Same way with the local NT church. It is the visible people of God within which exists an invisible elect of God.
     
  6. J.D.

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    Please give us your definition of "vocation".
     
  7. donnA

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    I very much agree with corporate and individual election, but it's hard to get people to understand, especially when they refuse to understand the most basic.
     
  8. Dr. L.T. Ketchum

    Dr. L.T. Ketchum
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  9. Dr. L.T. Ketchum

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    See the following chapter regarding your comment on Romans chapter 8.

    http://www.disciplemakerministries.org/Pages/Dispensationalism/Ordo.htm


    Chapter Eight, Nine, Ten and Twelve in the series are also on Romans chapter 8.

    http://www.disciplemakerministries.org/Pages/Dispensationalism/DispensationalismIndex.htm

    Some time next week the first chapter will be up on Romans chapter nine (about 15,000 words).

    What you refer to as the "visable" and "invisable" people of God are actually the two "seed" lines that come out of the Abrahamic Covenant. The first is National Israel with a conditional election connected to the physical "seed" of Abraham. The second is Spiritual Israel with a conditional election connected to the spiritual "Seed" (Gal. 3:16) through faith (being "born again") in the Promised One (Rom. 9:6). All Church Age believers (both Jew and Gentiles) are connected to Spiritual Israel and WILL BE the New Priesthood of Israel during the Kingdom Age.
     
  10. PK

    PK
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    STOP THE PRESSES!! :BangHead:

    All you have been saying for the past few years since I have been on here is that it's all of God, and it was settled before time began, and man has nothing to do with God's sovereign will, and, and , and....
    BUT now your telling me that it is my responsibility to make sure my election is good. I have power and control to do this???
    Please tell me how I can now for sure that my "election" is "good with God".

    Please re-read this PASSAGE (not just one verse) with the idea in mind that election always has to do with;
    a) The Body as a whole (yes individuals are making up this body)
    b) election has to do with SERVICE or Witness to the world as part of the plan of God.
     
  11. TCGreek

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    In what sense was all Israel elect, and in what sense was all Israel not saved?
     
  12. Amy.G

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    Isa 45:4 For Jacob My servant's sake,
    And Israel My elect,
    I have even called you by your name;
    I have named you, though you have not known Me.

    Deu 7:6 "For you [are] a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth.

    Psa 135:4 For the LORD has chosen Jacob for Himself, Israel for His special treasure.

    Rom 9:27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved.

    Rom 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
     
  13. J.D.

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    From the link you provided:

    How do you square that with this:
    Also, when did God learn that I was going to be saved? And should I assume that it was some time after that that he decided to call me into the ministry?
     
  14. J.D.

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    What condition did Abraham meet in order to be elected as the father of God's people? If God had not intervened in Abraham's life, he would have gone to hell when he died. True?
     
  15. skypair

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    I'm with PK on this, rip --- it looks like you are starting to "get it!" :praying:

    You rightly point out that Peter was addressing a corporate group who may not all be believers but who were, as part of the group, "elect."

    Then he tells them to do an individual examination and make sure they were part of the saved elect -- that their "calling and election" was sure. That "calling" can ONLY be sure if they did what Peter had told them in Acts 2:38 -- repent, be baptized, receive the Spirit. Which came first, rip? REPENT. Why repent? It's NOT because you already have received the Spirit and are thereby regenerate, is it. It's because you have heard the gospel and, like the 3000 at Pentecost, BELIEVED and were ready to "claim" the salvation promised God in that gospel.

    Of course, practically speaking, you know all this. You just choose to fashion your theology after someone else's, right?

    skypair
     
  16. skypair

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    Question for you, JD: What makes you so sure that Abram was the only citizen of Ur that God called? IOW, the 'condition' would be that he chose to obey God.

    In Hebrews 11, there is a "Faith" Chapter. What was said of each? "By faith he/she DID so and so." It doesn't say "by faith God did so and so," right? Faith involves human choice.

    skypair
     
  17. Rippon

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  18. Rippon

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    Rip: According to Dr.K. But the Bible speaks differently. Election in the Scripture is dealing with salvation. We are elect toward salvation.You can't be saved without election.If you think it's just dealing with our service to the Lord. You are wrong. And, not only wrong -- you're missing out on the joy and comfort the Lord gives knowing that you are His child because before the foundation of the world he chose you in Christ to be His child.
    Now do I think that election is what a new Christian must dwell upon? I think a new believer needs to be familiar with faith and obedience and holiness. He or she needs to think about the work on their behalf by Christ.But biblical election doesn't need to be put on a high shelf somewhere out of reach of a new believer.God is wiser than people are, even people who have been in the faith for decades and yet deny biblical truths like election and turn it in to something unrecognizable.
     
  19. Dr. L.T. Ketchum

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  20. TCGreek

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    I got you. Thanks.
     

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