Could God have saved everyone?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by whetstone, Aug 12, 2005.

  1. whetstone

    whetstone
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/11288.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    0
    Could God have created a universe in which all people would be saved? (and by this I mean giving each person enough time and revelation so that they would choose Christ)

    If yes:

    Why do you suppose that didn't happen?

    If no:

    Why isn't God omnipotent?

    Try not to get off topic in this thread. i'd like each new poster to actually address these questions. Thank you.

    Daniel Allen
    www.spurgeon.us
     
  2. 4His_glory

    4His_glory
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2005
    Messages:
    2,884
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes He could have if He wanted to and I believe that is point you are makeing. God's greatest passion is to be glorified so He is only going to do that which glorifies Him the most, and in His wisdom creating this world the way He did brings Him the most glory.

    Good post! I can't waite to see how the Arminians answer this one. ;)
     
  3. Monergist

    Monergist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    0
    I expect that the precise point of the question will be avoided and the answer will be something like "God gave individuals the ability to choose or reject for themselves..." because in their eyes God is in a box and is UNABLE to save anyone unless that person co-operates with Him.
     
  4. Monergist

    Monergist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    0
    My answer is 'Yes' and as for the question

    In order that Grace may be magnified and God may bring glory to Himself. We would have a better grasp on this if we could realize that God's plan is not all about us, it's about God and His Glory.

    God in His wisdom has allowed or permitted (we may even say decreed) that some continue in an unregenerate state because that ultimately magnifies His grace and glory. Recipients of His grace need not be contending with God and presuming to know better than Him when it comes to this matter. Rather, we should be overflowing with praise and acknowledging our unworthiness, rather than spouting off such nonsense as the only reason that we have grace applied to us is because WE responded and WE gave Him permission to grant salvation to us. These attititudes are a reproach upon God and His glorious work!!
     
  5. Karen

    Karen
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2000
    Messages:
    2,610
    Likes Received:
    0
    In order that Grace may be magnified and God may bring glory to Himself. We would have a better grasp on this if we could realize that God's plan is not all about us, it's about God and His Glory.

    God in His wisdom has allowed or permitted (we may even say decreed) that some continue in an unregenerate state because that ultimately magnifies His grace and glory.......
    </font>[/QUOTE]I am not a Calvinist, yet I agree with your statements. However, you and many Calvinists stop there. You emphasize continually some things at the seeming exclusion of others.

    Perhaps the answer is that no, God could not have created a world in which everyone would be saved.
    And that we don't know why. He has not revealed everything to us. And thinking that is possible does not make one an open theist or one believing that God has left it all to us and our decisions.

    However, God not only acts for His Glory. And His Glory is not independent of all of His other attributes. I realize that various Calvinistic creeds and confessions also emphasize that God is holy, just, righteous, loving, kind, merciful.
    And He acts with all of these characteristics. They all are descriptive of Him, not just seeking His glory, independent of all other attributes.

    I know that Calvinists do not really think usually that God's glory is independent of all other attributes. But your language answering such message board questions as this too often picks out one attribute of God and magnifies it to the extent that others don't SEEM to you to be important.
    Thus, it is easy for non-Calvinists to read your responses and think you really do mean that God closed His eyes and threw darts randomly in choosing the elect.
    Yes, He did choose us. And it was not because of anything good in us. But He acted out of all of His attributes. I don't know why all are not saved. No one, I think, other than God, knows why all are not saved. But we can trust Him.

    Karen
     
  6. 4His_glory

    4His_glory
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2005
    Messages:
    2,884
    Likes Received:
    0
    Karen,

    Would you provide proof of this. All the Calvinist that I know have a wonderful repsect for the attributes of God and their understanding of them is good. I have never seen a lack of emphasis. What I have seen is non-calvinists forgeting that God's supreme desire is to be glorified in everything.

    So is it no or yes. I am having trouble understanding what you are saying here. If it is no, then God is not omipotent. But He is omnipotent so therefore the answer can only be yes.

    Again God's chief desire is to be glorifeid. That is His supreme purpose. All His other attributes relate to that. God's love, mercy, justice, holiness, all serve to glorify Himself above all others. I find that non-calvinists often have a weak view of God's glory.

    Nobody ever said thats how God elects, clearly you misunderstand biblical election. Not one Calvinist on this board believes God "randomly throws darts".

    I am glad you recognize that God chooses us. That is very comendable, as some on this board fail to recognize that truth. He did use all of His attrubutes, but they all were for one purpose- that He may be glorified.
     
  7. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is a very good point Karen. Many times calvinist get so into the "facts" ...that they forget about the gospel. The study of sin and mans sinful nature show lead us more to share Gods love.

    There are 3 great areas in the relationship with God we must take part in. If we leave one part out we will get misplaced in out faith and go down a long worthless path

    these 3 things are...Bible Study, Prayer, and Sharing the gospel.

    Calvinist have the Bible study down..yet many do not use their studies to share. Too, in their debate of showing God is more then love, they come across to others as sharing Gods "picking" more then they should.

    Arminian often share the gospel more than Calvinist. and their focus is more on love But they need better understand of the full picture of God beyond Gods love and need to SAY God can indeed do as he wishes

    We all could stand to pray more.


    In Christ..james
     
  8. Magnetic Poles

    Magnetic Poles
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2005
    Messages:
    10,407
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't think this is a good answer, in that it makes God into the greatest, most self-centered being imaginable. I think God is better than that. To create beings to give himself glory and then to eternally punish those who don't do that doesn't mesh with the nature of a God who desired communion with his creation and loves them. I don't buy that God's greatest passion is to give glory to himself. By creating the universe in the first place (by whatever means he did so) is glory enough in itself. Who else has such power?
     
  9. 4His_glory

    4His_glory
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2005
    Messages:
    2,884
    Likes Received:
    0
    Some of the most fervently evangelist people I know are Calvinists.

    I know since I have become more calviniistic, that my desire to see the lost come to Christ has grown.
     
  10. Monergist

    Monergist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    0
    That statement, without the 'perhaps,' would be radically unbiblical. Scripture expresses that God's power is not limited in any way.
     
  11. 4His_glory

    4His_glory
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2005
    Messages:
    2,884
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't think this is a good answer, in that it makes God into the greatest, most self-centered being imaginable. I think God is better than that. To create beings to give himself glory and then to eternally punish those who don't do that doesn't mesh with the nature of a God who desired communion with his creation and loves them. I don't buy that God's greatest passion is to give glory to himself. By creating the universe in the first place (by whatever means he did so) is glory enough in itself. Who else has such power? </font>[/QUOTE]You may not agree, but as you study through the Bible, and understand redemtive history, you will see it is true. God's greatest desire is to be glorified.
    Rev 7:9-10 paints the final picture that God, will be glorified for ever.
    Jonathan Edwards wrote of this in his The End for Which God Created the World. There he shows God’s ultimate end is the manifestation of His glory in the highest happiness of His creatures.

    This is completly biblcial.

    Everything was created for His glory, for His pleasure.

    You may not like this, but thats what the Bible says. Even His desrie to have companionship with men is for the purpose of His glory. That is His chief desire.

    To say that God's greatest desire is not to be glorified, but have companionship is utterly selfish, and does not give the proper glory due Him.

    I am convinced that the majority of Christians have a very weak understanding of God's glory and His desire to be glorified.

    I encourge you to read this sermon manuscript.
    http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/gods_passion/god_us_himself.html

    It is a much better exposition than I could ever give of this wonderful truth.
     
  12. StefanM

    StefanM
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    6,423
    Likes Received:
    72
    That statement, without the 'perhaps,' would be radically unbiblical. Scripture expresses that God's power is not limited in any way. </font>[/QUOTE]God cannot die spiritually.
     
  13. Monergist

    Monergist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    0
    If God's greatest passion were to bring glory to any other than Himself then God would be an idolater.
     
  14. Monergist

    Monergist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    0
    Of course not. What does that have to do with God's POWER being limited? It only strengthens the point. If God COULD POSSIBLY die then His power WOULD be limited.
     
  15. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree with your 1st statement and say PRAISE GOD to our 2nd

    If you look at the top preachers though the years..many if not most were from the calvinism stand point and were evangelist. Many that sat under their teaching followed with a desire to share. Yet at the same time we also must admit that some use calvinism in the wrong way.

    If calvinism does not give you a desire to tell the lost of Christ, your studies are focused on the wrong thing. Most of the time when this happens it comes from lack of a prayer life and not applying mans sin nature as a need for us to share.

    Also....it may SEEM to others that calvinism forgets about Gods love. But i think this is comes from attacks on calvinism by others and the words used to defend calvinism, by those that hold to it, and that in a forum such as this, the only words some may see from a calvinist is anything other than Gods love. So as calvinist we must always not forget to share Gods love even in this forum. Because some only see page after page of a calvinist say....NO GOD CHOOSES...and think that is all calvinist think of.

    anyway..that's my thoughts


    In Christ...James
     
  16. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Hi Monergist;
    Are you saying that God worships Himself?

    I just never read anywhere where God worships anything. Your description makes God, self centered, and self absorbed. If this is so then why did He create men in the first place?.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike
     
  17. Karen

    Karen
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2000
    Messages:
    2,610
    Likes Received:
    0
    Would you provide proof of this. All the Calvinist that I know have a wonderful repsect for the attributes of God.....

    FROM KAREN: I can't provide proof. It is admittedly my own opinion after reading this message board for five years, my own personal conversations, reading the Reformed Journal, other websites, etc., etc. END

    So is it no or yes. I am having trouble understanding what you are saying here. If it is no, then God is not omipotent. But He is omnipotent so therefore the answer can only be yes..........

    FROM KAREN: It isn't yes or no. It is I don't know. Yes, God is omnipotent. But no, He does not act contrary to His nature. And no, He does not give us all the reasons for things. END


    Nobody ever said thats how God elects, clearly you misunderstand biblical election. Not one Calvinist on this board believes God "randomly throws darts".
    ........
    </font>[/QUOTE]FROM KAREN: I don't think I misunderstand election. You will note that what I said was it is easy for non-Calvinists to misunderstand what Calvinists say and THINK they are saying that God throws darts.
    Calvinists emphasize some concepts and assume others in popular presentations. END

    Karen
     
  18. Karen

    Karen
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2000
    Messages:
    2,610
    Likes Received:
    0
    That statement, without the 'perhaps,' would be radically unbiblical. Scripture expresses that God's power is not limited in any way. </font>[/QUOTE]Do you really think that? God is omnipotent, certainly. But He acts within His own character. He also has made a rational universe in which A is not non-A. He does not make square circles. He does not and cannot do anything that is not holy, loving, kind, righteous, just, or merciful.

    Karen
     
  19. Monergist

    Monergist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    0
    Karen,

    There is vast difference between saying "God COULD not have created a world in which everyone would be saved" and "God DID not create a world in which everyone would be saved."

    It seems that you are taking what he DID not do and saying that He COULD not do it.

    If He is able to save everyone (which I affirm that He is) then that does not violate His character, nor does it make Him "not holy, loving, kind, righteous, just, or merciful."

    The only way to make that objection would be to believe that everyone is somehow worthy of saving. If anyone here believes that, they have a gross under-estimation of the wickedness of sin.
     
  20. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    Are you saying that God worships Himself?

    I just never read anywhere where God worships anything. Your description makes God, self centered, and self absorbed. If this is so then why did He create men in the first place?.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike
    </font>[/QUOTE]You are correct, God worships NOONE. God is love, and 1 Cor. 13 tells us that love does not insist on it's own way. That's why he doesn't arbitrarily elect.

    God created us to worship Him, not to force us to worship Him. He wants a relationship with ALL MEN. He gives us the choice to want that relationship back. If we don't, there are consequences. Jesus said to Jerusalem how He wanted to gather them under His wing. This doesn't sound like forced election to me.
     

Share This Page

Loading...