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Could God have saved everyone?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by whetstone, Aug 12, 2005.

  1. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    To answer the op, God could have created man to have no free will, meaning man could not have chosen to sin, meaning no man would have ever perished. He didn't.
     
  2. Karen

    Karen Active Member

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    He is able to save everyone. But we only have partial glimpses of why He does not. I question "the only way to make that objection".
    No one is worthy of saving.
    God saves us out of His mercy, among other things. He is not capricious or arbitrary. Why an individual is not saved is not something that we have had completely explained to us.
    But IT SEEMS that Calvinists often want to say that it has all been explained.

    Karen
     
  3. Monergist

    Monergist New Member

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    Maybe its time for a revision of an old hymn:

    Amazing Free-will, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me...
     
  4. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi Monergist;
    What justice would there be in saving one who doesn't love God enough to at least try to follow the narrow path?
    What Righetousness would there be in a God who saved unrepentant men?
    Does a father trully care for the child he never corrects?
    Mercy is granting pardon. Is it mercifull to pardon those who are not merciful?
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike
     
  5. 4His_glory

    4His_glory New Member

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    Are you saying that God worships Himself?

    I just never read anywhere where God worships anything. Your description makes God, self centered, and self absorbed. If this is so then why did He create men in the first place?.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike
    </font>[/QUOTE]Why did God make man? Thats an easy one- for His glory.

    "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." (Rev. 4:11)
     
  6. Monergist

    Monergist New Member

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    [​IMG]

    I thought of this verse as well. It seems that some here would sing--

    "the greatest, most self-centered being imaginable Thou art," O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."
     
  7. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Maybe its time for a revision of an old hymn:

    Amazing Free-will, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me...
    </font>[/QUOTE]God's grace is in giving man a way to spend eternity with Him in spite of ourselves. This has nothing to do with free will decisions.

    I can walk up to you today and offer to pay off your home. Do you have to accept it? How would your decision reflect my grace one way or the other?
     
  8. Monergist

    Monergist New Member

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    Bad analogy.

    The recipient of grace is DEAD. Dead in trespasses and sins. God graciously grants LIFE. It was GOD's choice, not DEAD man's.

    Now THAT's Grace.
     
  9. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    So says your theology. I don't believe the Holy Spirit draws "dead" men. He draws "all men". We have been created with the ability to respond to His drawing.
     
  10. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    Yes, God can save every one. "It ain't over till the fat lady sings."

    "Good" Christians don't WANT God to save everyone.
     
  11. Monergist

    Monergist New Member

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    What do you do with scripture that says we were DEAD in trespasses and sins?
     
  12. whetstone

    whetstone <img src =/11288.jpg>

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    As i suspected, the arminian camp WILL NOT answer my question in the OP. instead they spend post after precious post attacking the Calvinists that are willing to answer it. Why aren't you willing to answer the question? Are you afraid of what you might find? Webdog DID answer the question (the only non-Calvinist so far) so let's look at his response.

    Q. Could God have created a universe in which all people would be saved? (and by this I mean giving each person enough time and revelation so that they would choose Christ)

    If yes:

    Why do you suppose that didn't happen?

    If no:

    Why isn't God omnipotent?


    Webdog's Answer:

    You answered by a) stating a scenario (God could have done such and such) then b) stating a known fact (God didn't do your scenario).

    How does this answer my question?
     
  13. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    You're good at reading things into statements, I'm surprised you couldn't read into mine.

    a) The scenario I stated says, "yes" God could have, but He didn't. He also could have created men to have two heads.

    b) He didn't because He wants an unforced relationship with Him. He created man for fellowship as evidenced by the daily walks in the garden and His love for ALL mankind. He didn't create robots.
     
  14. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    What do you do with scripture that says we were DEAD in trespasses and sins? </font>[/QUOTE]You think dead in sin means we are dead to do what God commands us to do? We are not dead to choose. Men choosing is all over the Bible.
     
  15. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    You did not answer. What does it mean?
     
  16. Andre

    Andre Well-Known Member

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    Hello Monergist (and others):

    I am interested in further clarification as to why you (and others) believe that man is incapable "on his own" of responding to God. The key issue (for me) seems to be the following: You seem to argue that the recipient of grace is not capable of responding to God's call because he is "dead".

    To take a contrary position (for the sake of argument in the spirit of seeking understanding), how do you know that the scriptures that you use to support your view are not also consistent with an interpretation to the effect that we are dead in the sense of being in a condemned state (judicially dead, as it were) rather than dead to the point of losing our capability to respond (as free-will agents) to God's grace?

    Is your argument that the scriptures say man is dead and we know for reasons x,y,and z that this means dead in the "he cannot respond" sense not dead only in a "judicially condemned" sense? Presumably, you have some defence for such a "strong" construal of "dead" (rather than the more metaphorical construal that we are dead in the judicially condemned sense). In other words, presumably you have reasons "x,y,and z" in your pocket - you aren't just assuming that "dead" means that we cannot respond, especially when one can, at least in our day and age, use the word "dead" in a more metaphorical sense (e.g. "he is dead inside" meaning that he has no emotions, not that he has lost his power to reason and think).

    I hope you can see where I am coming from. If you can provide Biblical texts that support the idea that man cannot, of his own "free-will", respond to God's call, other than ones of the form "man is dead", this will strenghen your case. Why? Because this other evidence would take away the need for you to justify your strong construal of "dead".
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Yes -

    God COULD have made Lucifer such that he COULD NOT rebell against his creator and choose OUTSIDE his sinless nature.

    God COULD have made Adam and Eve the same way.

    God COULD have made all the angels the same way.

    But THEN having not chosen to do any of the above - God COULD have supernaturally put MORE than just "emnity" between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent - in Gen 3.

    At ANY POINT God COULD have done something else so that the deck was stacked such that God's creation is allowed NO possible negative choice.

    God COULD have denied such open and investigative "Objective" venues for the heavenly councils as the one seen in Job 1 and 2.

    God COULD have zapped the brains of all heavenly intelligences so that no CHALLENGE to God's authority could be objectively considered and not possible audience for the Job 1 and 2 challenge by Satan. No possible need for objective proof - data - support of God's claim -- in the tormented life of Job.

    If God had CHOSEN to avoid the problem of Free Will and save both Himself and His creation tons of grief - He COULD have done that at many many points along the way.

    But He did not.

    God values FREE WILL to the point of being willing to LOSE - Lucifer, 1/3 of the Angels, Adam and Eve, the "MANY" of Matt 7 and EVEN to having to lose the life of His own Son in redeeming us but ONLY in a salvation solution where free will is STILL protected/supported/provided such that the servants of God "BEG the LOST to be reconciled to God" 2Cor 5 and Christ "Stands at the door and KNOCKS" -- no forcing.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. Andre

    Andre Well-Known Member

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    Ooops. Forget to address the OP

    I will answer "yes" but will answer "I don't know" to the question "Why do you suppose that didn't happen".
     
  19. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    Would you say, then, that God loves free will more than He loves the lost?
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I don't know how He would answer that but obviously He Loves the free will condition that he establishes for the universe MORE than simply "using power to ensure that nobody ever sins".

    As to "why" He has obviously and sovereingly chosen to place such high value on a Universe that preserves that attribute...

    Maybe it is because the highest form of love is never forced.

    That is just a guess. It is hard to know why God thinks what He thinks without first BEING God.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
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