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Could God have saved everyone?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by whetstone, Aug 12, 2005.

  1. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi Monergist;
    Yet not once in scripture is this ever demonstrated where a man is saved before he believes. Strong evidence, for there is no such thing.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Good point Mike.

    IN FACt in Rev 3 we see "mankind alone on the INSIDE" and NOT in "UNION with Christ".

    We see Christ ON THE OUTSIDE knocking.

    It is not until the person ALONE on the inside - OPENS the door that the UNION takes place.

    How instructive.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    I don't think it's my place to speculate on divine woulda-coulda-shoulda's.

    God coulda made my knees bend the other way.
     
  4. Karen

    Karen Active Member

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    Oh, well, another reminder of why I don't spend much time here. I presume that since I am not strictly a Calvinist, you classify me as an Arminian. I honestly thought I did answer you.
    I was willing, and I answered truthfully. I don't know how God works it all out. Except that He is just and righteous in all His ways.

    Karen
     
  5. Michael52

    Michael52 Member

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    Yes

    I don't know. Are you wanting me to "decipher" God's mind? :D

    Seriously, though, I have to look at it from the position that all God's attributes (omnipotent, omniscient, omni..., etc) are not dependent on the details of the universe he chose to create. That is, whether he created a universe where all, none or some would be saved, has no bearing on what God could or could not do. It is totally up to Him how this should work the details out. Though, it is probable that the details of this particular universe affect how we percieve the immutable God. We aren't really "qualified" to speculate on how things might otherwise have been.

    Yet, it seems the Bible does tell us what we really need to know with regard to salvation, in this universe. God created everything and is in control of it. He created us for His pleasure and we owe everything we have to Him, though some do not or will not recognize this. We are responsible for our choices, thoughts and actions, whether good or bad. Salvation is by God's grace, through faith. We love God because He first loved us.

    Jn 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    Ro 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame."
    Ro 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
    Ro 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

    Whoever beleives in him (ie "choose" Christ) are the same chosen by Him and everyone who calls on His name inherit eternal life. Amen. :cool:
     
  6. 4His_glory

    4His_glory New Member

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    Cavinists do not deny that whoever believes in Christ are those who were choosen by Him. Gald that you understand that truth.

    But we also believe that man will not believe becuase of his sinful depraved state unless God enables him to believe, so really it comes down to how sinful man is.
     
  7. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Cavinists do not deny that whoever believes in Christ are those who were choosen by Him. Gald that you understand that truth.

    But we also believe that man will not believe becuase of his sinful depraved state unless God enables him to believe, so really it comes down to how sinful man is.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Amen.

    The question is not if the Bible says "whosoever will may come".

    The point is..who will come? No man seeks after God
     
  8. Pipedude

    Pipedude Active Member

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    That statement, without the 'perhaps,' would be radically unbiblical. Scripture expresses that God's power is not limited in any way. </font>[/QUOTE]There are many things that God cannot do. You've probably memorized a verse or two that expressly say that God "cannot" do this or that.

    It has nothing to do with his "power."
     
  9. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    That statement, without the 'perhaps,' would be radically unbiblical. Scripture expresses that God's power is not limited in any way. </font>[/QUOTE]There are many things that God cannot do. You've probably memorized a verse or two that expressly say that God "cannot" do this or that.

    It has nothing to do with his "power."
    </font>[/QUOTE]God cannot lie. God cannot be tempted with evil. There are other things, too, which basically are all expressions of the fact that God cannot sin.

    1. Would God have had to sin in order to have created a world in which everyone would be saved?

    2. If it were not a moral constraint then what kind of constraint could it have been to prevent Him from creating a world in which everyone would be saved, except a constraint on His power?
     
  10. Pipedude

    Pipedude Active Member

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    You are thinking in an upside down manner. There is no such thing as "morality" to constrain God, nor is there anything else to constrain him.

    God cannot reduce himself to a duality or expand himself into a quadrality. But "constraint" is not the word for it. And it isn't a question of morals.

    You are ultimately posing "the problem of evil." The only reason that ancient conundrum is a problem is because there is no completely satisfactory answer. And that includes Calvinism, which, like the sad little efforts that we lesser cretins call our theological systems, will somewhere have to stop with "even so, Father, for so it seemed good in thy sight."
     
  11. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Cavinists do not deny that whoever believes in Christ are those who were choosen by Him. Gald that you understand that truth.

    But we also believe that man will not believe becuase of his sinful depraved state unless God enables him to believe, so really it comes down to how sinful man is.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Amen.

    The question is not if the Bible says "whosoever will may come".

    The point is..who will come? No man seeks after God
    </font>[/QUOTE]The problem I have with this is the Holy Spirit draws (seeks out) all men which means all men have the opportunity to respond. If they don't, the Holy Spirit is wasting time drawing "all" men, the maing problem with total depravity.
     
  12. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    You are thinking in an upside down manner. There is no such thing as "morality" to constrain God, nor is there anything else to constrain him.

    God cannot reduce himself to a duality or expand himself into a quadrality. But "constraint" is not the word for it. And it isn't a question of morals.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Any time you say "God cannot", that's a constraint. If you want to pick another word for it, that's fine. The original quote suggested the possibility that "God could not have created a world in which everyone would be saved". You seemed to suggest that this is a possibility, so I am asking how it could possibly be possible? For it to be possible then something must keep God from saving everyone. What could that something be?
     
  13. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    So "God cannot sin" is putting a constraint on Him?
     
  14. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    God's own character constrains Him from sinning. What constrains Him from saving everyone?
     
  15. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    God's own character constrains Him from sinning. What constrains Him from saving everyone? </font>[/QUOTE]I can't answer for God, but I would venture it is man's lack of obeyment in putting our faith in His Son like the Bible commands to be saved.
     
  16. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    But what could keep God from creating a world in which no one sinned, and so no one needed to be saved?
     
  17. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    But what could keep God from creating a world in which no one sinned, and so no one needed to be saved? </font>[/QUOTE]Again, I won't try to answer for God. He could have created a world without sin where noone sinned. He didn't. My guess would be He didn't want trillions of robots that were commanded to love Him, but willingly loved Him.
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    This is what I keep call Calvinized "Marketeering".

    "Oh sure sure the Bible SAYS whosever will may come -- but that is just to trick you into thinking that the Gospel really and truly IS available to everyone and anyone that wants to come may. But in fact that is like saying anyone that can jump over the moon is welcome to do it".

    The Calvinist idea that these Gospel statements (claiming an unlimited scope to the gospel) are really just jump-over-the-moon statements (coded so that ALL might THINK they have a shot - but in fact it is a very very limited solution for "the FEW" only) - is something that seems to appeal to some kinds of Calvinists - but never make it beyond that point.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The question "keeps getting asked" as to why God would "constrain Himself" to want that kind of love from mankind.

    The fact of the free will universe is confirmed as we note that in a free will system conclusions are "motivating" by compelling data - compelling argument -- not by 'zapping brains'.

    And it is that "compelling argument" model that we see in Job 1 and 2.

    It is that objective judgment where intelligent beings "make decisions" that we see in Romans 2 and Daniel 7.

    It is intelligent beings "making mistakes" when they evaluate the data that we see in the case of Adam and Eve.

    It is a "free will" system that God has paid so much to maintain.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    You've combined misrepresentation, a strawman argument and begging the question all in one sentence. That's impressive, but thoroughly unhelpful for this discussion.
     
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