Could God have saved everyone?

Hello webdog.

EX 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

What can I say? It simply refutes your statement. Scripture is clear about it: For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. Romans 9:17-18.

Is He unjust? He said to Moses "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." Is that unjust to you? It is to me but God says it isn't! RO 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It is not unjust because God says it ain't and that good enough for me.

But He told man the way the cookie crumbles years ago. And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." Gen 3:22
Your 'they are not being disabled to reject' is wrong is it not for after he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life. Gen 3:24. Violence is waiting for those who reach out towards the tree of life of their own sovereign choice. He does not bear a sword for nothing.

You wouldn't think that trees would be so much trouble would you? HaHa!

john.

 

"nothing to do with God choosing......"

Election has EVERYTHING to do with God choosing

How can what you say happen? If you choose God 1st how can God then choose you when the election is over? If this is the case election by God is not needed. It seems to me that the Bible says all the electing is from God and that God loved us 1st before we were even born and this was when electiong happened. With God electing us before we were born is not the election over with before we have a chance to choose?

Thus the phrase..."choosen before the world was formed". Were you there to choose for yourself? I don't think so.


In Christ...James

 

Hello James.

It beats me. I can understand why an American might have misunderstandings over the meaning of sovereignty but it is very revealing how election is mistreated. I suppose the idea of a Sovereign Democracy, One God One vote, is not liked very much especially as the One vote is the majority thus depriving us of our rights of sovereignty.
Welcome to the Twilight Zone where redemned means to buy oneself back and where atonement does not atone and where Saviour means One who hopes some will save themselves. HaHa!

And here is ILUVLIGHT's explanation of 'saved'. If you save yourself He saves you? Of course God could save everyone but chose to save only those who believe in Him. But Jesus says All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:37-40.

Could God have saved everyone?
In the death of Christ there is sufficient merit to save all mankind but not one angel. God could not have saved everyone because that would have conflicted with His choice not to save everyone.
God could not have saved everyone because man would not then see the glory of God in the justice meted out to man for his sin.

john.

 

"nothing to do with God choosing......"

Election has EVERYTHING to do with God choosing

How can what you say happen? If you choose God 1st how can God then choose you when the election is over? If this is the case election by God is not needed. It seems to me that the Bible says all the electing is from God and that God loved us 1st before we were even born and this was when electiong happened. With God electing us before we were born is not the election over with before we have a chance to choose?

Thus the phrase..."choosen before the world was formed". Were you there to choose for yourself? I don't think so.


In Christ...James </font>[/QUOTE]You didn't finish my quote. God didn't pick and choose people to heaven before time. God supplied the means to heaven before time, and new the actions of every human to live before time, but this doesn't prove arbitrary unconditional election, rather conditional election, the acceptance of His free gift of salvation. Jesus is God's elect. Anyone who is "in Christ" becomes elect. This does not mean we "chose Him first". God first put out the gift for man to take, man receiving the gift assures election. Receiving a gift, for the umpteenth time is in no way deserving, earning, or doing ANYTHING to merit the reception of the gift. Calvinists just can't get past this, and if you would compare scripture to other scrpture and let the Holy Spirit speak to you, you would get it.

 

EX 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

What can I say? It simply refutes your statement. Scripture is clear about it: For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. Romans 9:17-18.

Is He unjust? He said to Moses "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." Is that unjust to you? It is to me but God says it isn't! RO 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It is not unjust because God says it ain't and that good enough for me.

But He told man the way the cookie crumbles years ago. And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." Gen 3:22
Your 'they are not being disabled to reject' is wrong is it not for after he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life. Gen 3:24. Violence is waiting for those who reach out towards the tree of life of their own sovereign choice. He does not bear a sword for nothing.

You wouldn't think that trees would be so much trouble would you? HaHa!

john. </font>[/QUOTE]The Bible tells us that Pharaoh hardened HIS OWN heart nine times, and that God hardened Pharaoh's heart nine times. Coincidence? I think not. The first five plagues Pharaoh hardened HIS OWN heart. Not until the sixth plague did God harden Pharaoh's heart. In God's perfect foreknowledge, He knew Pharaoh would harden his heart against Him FIRST, and I believe this is what was meant by that he was raised for this purpose. This still does not prove unconditional election, but aritrary conditional election.

 

Hello webdog.

EX 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
Why did Pharoah refuse to let the Israelites go? So that he would not let them go God hardened his heart. But I will harden his heart so that...

But I will harden his heart so that...

...aritrary conditional election... I've taken that to read 'arbitrary conditional election' and when I do I don't understand what you mean.
RO 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." This proves unconditional election as does RO 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

john.

 

In the Bible we are commanded not to harden our own heart and Pharaoh is described as choosing to “harden his heart”.

But also God is said to have a part in that - as in the case of Pharaoh where the more God revealed Himself and His power to Pharoah – the more Pharaoh chose to rebel against God.

Since God is all-knowing you can view this as God hardening pharaoh’s heart “in a sense”.

Command not to harden our own hearts.

History of those who harden their hearts –

A statement of fact that hearts are hardened when they see the works of God calling them to repent or when God causes them to reveal their spirit of rebellion in more bold ways.

 

You oppose scripture Bob.

5. Exodus 9:35
Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not let the sons of Israel go, just as the LORD had spoken through Moses.

...But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. Ex 4:21

john.

 

2. 1 Samuel 6:6
"Why then do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? When He had severely dealt with them, did they not allow the people to go, and they departed?

 

In the Bible we are commanded not to harden our own heart like Pharaoh chose to “harden his heart”.

1. 1 Samuel 6:6
"Why then do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? When He had severely dealt with them, did they not allow the people to go, and they departed?


But also God is said to have a part in that - as in the case of Pharaoh where the more God revealed Himself and His power and then His Mercy to Pharaoh. The Pharaoh quickly yields to God under pressure but then when he sees God’s mercy he turns back again at the first chance to rebellion. God “could” have simply killed the first born as “step one”.

1. Exodus 8:15
But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.


Since God is all-knowing you can view this as God hardening pharaoh’s heart “in a sense” because He knows that in showing mercy – Pharaoh will “choose” to cling to rebellion

 

Hello Bob.

The Holy Spirit will not work in a vacuum. Before a man is saved He must hear the gospel. He has established a systen of cause and effect. This is the way He has set things up for us to make sense out of things that happen. Nature does not exist apart from God.
When He tells us not to harden our hearts we can use that to ask that He stops us from wandering. The Holy Spirit does the prompting and when you need prompting you will read or remember or not remember but the Lord will use what is in your head and rarely does He forgo the natural process that is established.
1 Sam 6:6 Why do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh did? When he treated them harshly, did they not send the Israelites out so they could go on their way?
Pharaoh was an object lesson and the Holy Spirit used that imformation that was in their minds bringing glory to Himself by causing pagans to pay Him homage.

You can't get around it: ...But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. Puts it beyond dispute. The cause of Pharaoh hardening his heart was God was in him causing the hardening. ...But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

No it's uncompromising it cannot be broken either. ...But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
1SA 2:22 Now Eli, who was very old, heard about everything his sons were doing to all Israel and how they slept with the women who served at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. 23 So he said to them, "Why do you do such things? I hear from all the people about these wicked deeds of yours. 24 No, my sons; it is not a good report that I hear spreading among the LORD's people. 25 If a man sins against another man, God may mediate for him; but if a man sins against the LORD, who will intercede for him?" His sons, however, did not listen to their father's rebuke, for it was the LORD's will to put them to death. He could just have easily have caused a regeneration or two but that was not His will.

That's the point. Pharaoh was not stupid but stupored. Common sense as in cause and effect had to be overcome by God because God would still be acting along with the natural process and common sense would have prevailed. Pharaoh had to receive more hardening other wise he would have bye byed a lot quicker than he did and also the impulse to go amowing was crazy but: For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Rom 9:17.
And that happened 1 Sam 6:6 Why do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh did? When he treated them harshly, did they not send the Israelites out so they could go on their way? Cause and effect at work under the direct control of God.

john.

 

Webdog,

I didn't have to finish it. When you said the 1st part was when you went off path. The 2nd part didn't make things better, it just went south more.

When the Bible tells of God making man it looks as if it was God that choose to do this. Adam had no say so.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


When it says the Lord was the one that choose to respect Abels offering over Cains, it looks like it was really the Lord that did this. Why? Well it looks like God can do as he wishes. The Bible says nothing about Cain being BAD up to this point. God just did not want his offering.

3And in the course of time Cain brought to the Lord an offering of the fruit of the ground.

4And Abel brought of the firstborn of his flock and of the fat portions. And the Lord had respect and regard for Abel and for his offering,(A)

5But for [a]Cain and his offering He had no respect or regard. So Cain was exceedingly angry and indignant, and he looked sad and depressed.

Noah called on God and asked God to save Him from the Flood and….wait that’s not what happen. Noah had no idea of the flood…and it was GOD that Choose Noah to save, and it looks like it was really God. In this case Noah was a just man

12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. 13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.


When God called Abram it looks like it was God that did the choosing. There is no reason given for God choosing Abram. The land Abram came from worshipped other Gods. But God choose him anyway.

1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Who was it that was THERE picking between 2 sons Ishmael the 1st born, and Isaac the son yet born? It looks like it was God doing the choosing.

And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! 19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

NEXT…was it the LORD that choose Jacob and not Esau before they were born? It sure looks like that to me.

23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger. 24 And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb. 25 And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau. 26 And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau's heel; and his name was called Jacob: and Isaac was threescore years old when she bare them.

Lets see When God said he choose the Jews it looks like it was HIM that choose the Jews.

6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. 7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: 8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh

Was it not the Lord that called moses?


4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. 5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither:

Did Joshua choose God or did God choose Joshua?

Now after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, saying, 2 Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel

The Bible says it was the Lord that choose the Judges of Israel.

18 And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge:

When the Bible says the Lord called Samuel, the way I read it is that it really was the Lord that called him.

10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.


I am sure that it is God that choose David over his older brothers…not David choosing God.

10 Again, Jesse made seven of his sons to pass before Samuel. And Samuel said unto Jesse, The LORD hath not chosen these. 11 And Samuel said unto Jesse, Are here all thy children? And he said, There remaineth yet the youngest, and, behold, he keepeth the sheep. And Samuel said unto Jesse, Send and fetch him: for we will not sit down till he come hither. 12 And he sent, and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, and withal of a beautiful countenance, and goodly to look to. And the LORD said, Arise, anoint him: for this is he.


Who was the one that choose to give Daniel the vistions?

Who called out to Hosea and TOLD him what to do?

Who picked joel? “
“The word of the LORD that came to Joel the son of Pethuel.”

Who came to Haggai?
In the second year of Darius the king, in the sixth month, in the first day of the month, came the word of the LORD by Haggai the prophet unto Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and to Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest, saying

Who CAME to Zephaniah?
The word of the LORD which came unto Zephaniah the son of Cushi, the son of Gedaliah, the son of Amariah, the son of Hizkiah, in the days of Josiah the son of Amon, king of Judah

Who chose Obadiah /THE LORD CAME

Was it not God the Father that sent the Son? It was His choice to do so…right?
1 John 4:10 - Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Did the apostles pick Christ or did Christ Pick the apostles?

“Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you”

When the Bible tells of Pauls calling was it really God or was it Paul picking?

Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Barnabas…was CHOSEN
Acts 15:25 - It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,


But now when it comes to us it is up to us to have faith 1st before God can choose us? What was the choosing that happened before we were born? What was that all about?

Ephesians 1:4 - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

Pharaoh was an object lesson so that others would not make the SAME choice as Pharaoh (the ONLY way an OBJECT LESSON actually WORKS).

So you are saying the Holy Spirit was trying to get them to PRAY to GOD that GOD WOULD not harden THEIR hearts the way HE hardened Pharaoh's heart!! (No matter WHAT the text of 1Sam "actually" says???))

Interesting.

So in your Bible-contradicting rewrite of 1Sam 6 do you "imagine" that God would "change His behavior" and STOP hardening Israel LIKE HE DID with Pharaoh - IF they could overcome that hardening enough to pray this request to God??

How much self-contradicting logic is Calvinism willing to expose?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Stops "US from wandering" or stops HIMSELF from MAKING us wander??

I thought you were objecting to the clear Bible teaching that "Pharaoh hardened HIS heart"!

Yes?

In Christ,

Bob

 

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You can't get around it: ...

It is when PHARAOH SAW - that God brought relief - THEN he hardened HIS heart!

God was ACTING in a way that would allow Pharaoh to harden his heart.

Take a little time to "notice the details" in the Bible texts included here.

 

Hello Bob.

As you like. I'll say it once more: ...But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. Ex 4:21
If you don't believe that there is no more to be said is there?

john.

 

Which is neither here nor there. The Arminian argument is not that God needs a vote to create something.

Straw man -- "next".

Actually it looks like the SAME rules that apply in Moses' book "Leviticus" when it comes to sacrifices are the SAME ones applying in Moses' book Genesis.

We see for example the clean and unclean animals used in sacrifice in Gen 7-9 without being told "What they are" until Lev 11.

Same author - same primary audience and ALL had access to the same set of books. So Moses did not repeat those rules about sacrifices in each book!

Next.

Again - the fickle and arbitrary nature of God being promoted here does not fit with scripture.

Abel was judged as righteous and Cain as doing evil for God said "IF you DO WELL" you will be accepted.

By conveniently ignoring the issue of Cain and SIN and the fact that he needed to "master it" in this case of submitting to God's rule regarding sacrifices rather than choosing rebellion is entirely MISSING from your summary.

Why so silent on the key point?

Again - this is neither here nor their. Arminianism does not require that mankind know the future as soon as God decides something.


In this case Noah was a just man - it does not say "And Noah was like all the rest but God arbitrarily picked him to save" as Calvinism (4-5 point Calvinism) would have it!

God tells Isaac that Abraham was chosen as one who would command his household to obey God's laws, statutes and commandments.

But in all this - you have a point with Abraham in that Melchezidek was not "chosen" as the leader of a nation.

But the "choice" for earthly leadership and ministry is NOT the same thing as the CHOICE for salvation -- is it. (At least Arminianism has never said that it was -- maybe Calvinists do say that).

--

And so on.

in Christ,

Bob

 

As you like. I'll say it once more: ...But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. Ex 4:21
If you don't believe that there is no more to be said is there?

john. </font>[/QUOTE]I have an idea if you are looking for something to respond to --

Try responding to the points raised.

You know - the actual Bible texts given to SHOW how the acts of God are received in the life of those who choose to rebel against him.

you know the texts that say WE SHOULD not make the SAME choice to harden OUR hearts the way Pharaoh chose to harden his!!

Why ignore scripture in your attempts to eisegete??

Oh wait -- I think I see why you are doing that now. Eisegesis "needs" that approach.

Never mind.

In Christ,

Bob

 

It is interesting that JohnP finds no text below that he can deal with.

</font>[/QUOTE]

 

Hey bob,


Maybe you did not see a pattern. To make things clear...it is ALWAYS Gods choice that is the action of the event posted

Notice below...


*******************

When the Bible tells of God making man it looks as if it was God that choose to do this. Adam had no say so.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

[/QUOTE]Which is neither here nor there. The Arminian argument is not that God needs a vote to create something.
***********************
The point is it was Gods choice.

Straw man -- "next".
********************
What Gods Choice? I do not think so.

Actually it looks like the SAME rules that apply in Moses' book "Leviticus" when it comes to sacrifices are the SAME ones applying in Moses' book Genesis.

We see for example the clean and unclean animals used in sacrifice in Gen 7-9 without being told "What they are" until Lev 11.

Same author - same primary audience and ALL had access to the same set of books. So Moses did not repeat those rules about sacrifices in each book!
********************
Again it was Gods Choice. It was not my intent to over look God leting Cain come again. But again this 2nd chance was Gods choice..not Cains. Cains offering was before Abels and there is no reason to think it was a bad heart. Notice the rejection was what caused him to be sad. I agree that the picture was to be a pure picture of the coming atonement. Yet it was Gods choice to paint this picture, for the Law had not been given to man at this time. No rules were set for offerings. God choose to reject it to show man can not come to god anyway he wants. Its only though the atoneing power of the Blood.

Again...Gods choice

Again - the fickle and arbitrary nature of God being promoted here does not fit with scripture.

Abel was judged as righteous and Cain as doing evil for God said "IF you DO WELL" you will be accepted.
***********
WRONG This had nothing to do with cains heart before the fact. Now Cains hearty was not right afterwards..but still do not blaim God for this. It had more to do with the picture of salvation, and Cain looked at the rejection as a reject of him. Yet God said he too could come, but he too had to come though the blood just as his brother. The offering was not about salvation of cain, but to show there is only one way to salvation. And again...this was GODS CHOICE

By conveniently ignoring the issue of Cain and SIN and the fact that he needed to "master it" in this case of submitting to God's rule regarding sacrifices rather than choosing rebellion is entirely MISSING from your summary.
***************
my summary was ity is GOD that chooses. Some men are "just"...some are "bad"..just as Paul. It does not matter to God. Gods choice is just that...GODS CHOICE

Why so silent on the key point?
********************
Maybe it was you that missed the point

Again - this is neither here nor their. Arminianism does not require that mankind know the future as soon as God decides something.


In this case Noah was a just man - it does not say "And Noah was like all the rest but God arbitrarily picked him to save" as Calvinism (4-5 point Calvinism) would have it!
**********************
Again Bob you missed the point. I said in my post NOAH was a just man...and God picked him. Still it was GOD that choose. RIGHT??

God tells Isaac that Abraham was chosen as one who would command his household to obey God's laws, statutes and commandments.

But in all this - you have a point with Abraham in that Melchezidek was not "chosen" as the leader of a nation.

But the "choice" for earthly leadership and ministry is NOT the same thing as the CHOICE for salvation -- is it. (At least Arminianism has never said that it was -- maybe Calvinists do say that).
*********************
well i think it was more then just leadership...but that is still not the point. The point is..GOD CHOOSE....man did not


*********************
So moving to the last sum of all things for my post.....

When the Bible says God choose us before we were born....does it mean that GOD CHOOSE US? like when he choose other things?

understand?


In Christ...James