Could God impart independency

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, Dec 4, 2013.

  1. Luke2427

    Luke2427
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    8
    In the previous thread along these lines Skandelon argued that man's will is independent so much that nothing causes it to choose what it chooses outside of the chooser. In other words, there is no cause for why the chooser chooses what he chooses.

    Skandelon attributes to choice, or the chooser, the characteristic that God alone can have- being an uncaused cause.

    That's what contra-causal is. It means nothing caused it.


    con·tra
    In contrast or opposition to; against.
    adv.
    In opposition to something stated or expected; to the contrary.



    That attribute can belong to God alone. Only God is uncaused. Only his actions can be made based on himself.

    When Skandelon says that a choice is based on the chooser he is attributing to the chooser God's incommunicable attribute of independency.

    A choice cannot say of itself "I am that I am" and therefore it is dependent.

    The chooser cannot say of himself "I am that I am." Therefore his choosing is contingent, dependent and fully relying upon God for his existence and for the existence of all that he does.

    Skandelon tries to wiggle out from under this by saying that choices do have influences but that the influences are not sufficient guarantors of what the choice will be.

    What then IS the sufficient guarantor and what does it look to in order to guarantee the choice?

    He cannot answer.

    But the answer is obvious to anyone who is remotely objective.

    Scripture says that in God we live and move and have our being. The Word of God says that Christ was before all things and by HIM all things CONSIST.

    The only thing in the universe that is uncaused is GOD. Not man's puny choices and not the puny choosers of those choices.

    Being UNCAUSED is the PREMIER attribute of God. It is THE ESSENCE of his very name, Jehovah.

    To snatch that attribute down from its highest and holiest perch in the nature of God and to attribute it to a man choosing is really a VERY DANGEROUS THING.
     
    #1 Luke2427, Dec 4, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 4, 2013
  2. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    WOW!!! Very thought provoking question Kudos!! :thumbsup:

    If God chose to, I would have to say "yes" to the OP's question. However, that was never part of His plan, imo. Eventhough Adam and Eve had true free will to eat anything in the Garden, God gave them the ramifications of what would happen when, not if, but when, they ate of it. So, eventhough they had free will to truly choose betwixt good and evil, they were still dependent upon God and His provisions. I hope this doesn't cause a rabbit trail.
     
  3. Luke2427

    Luke2427
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    8
    Thanks.

    Let me be clear. I believe in free will if by it you mean the ability to choose what you want.

    But the question is why do you want what you want?

    Now that's something worth pondering. Why do people want what they want?

    It would do to lean back in one's chair and just meditate on that question for a good while.

    Yes, men are free to do what they want, but why do they want what they want?

    And to probe a bit further, what causes men to want what they want?

    That question, imo, ought to be pondered even longer than the previous question.

    Men are free to do what they want but they are bound to choose what they want. So their choice is really bound to their wants. Do I eat the twinkie or not? I want it. But I want to lose weight more than I want to eat the twinkie. So what do I choose? I choose what I... MOST WANT. MOST want. It is not that I am choosing against my wants when I choose NOT to eat the twinkie. No. It is that I have another want bigger than my want for the twinkie. The want to lose weight. So I always choose what I MOST want.

    Now, again, why do men want what they want?

    I think it is because they are what they are.

    Men choose what they choose because they want what they want because they are what they are.

    Probe a bit further. Why are they what they are? What made them what they are? What designed their DNA, appointed for them to be born of the parents they would be born to, to be raised in the environment in which they were raised and all the other things that make them what they are?

    What controls all of those factors?

    Acts 17

    24The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28‘For in him we live and move and have our being.
     
    #3 Luke2427, Dec 4, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 4, 2013
  4. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    Let me clean this up a bit. God made us to be dependent to Him. If we were independent, we could come to Him anytime we chose to. If we were independent, we'd have no need of being drawn to Him.
     
  5. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    To quote Brother KYR, "Zactly". Put a bail of hay and a fish in front of a cow and see which she chooses. Put a zebra and a bunch of green leaves before a lion and see which one he'll choose. Same with us. We will choose the most pleasing thing virtually every time.......
     
  6. Luke2427

    Luke2427
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    8
    That's right.

    A man puts a gun to my head and says, "Give me all of your money!"

    Do I want to give him my money?

    No.

    But do I want to live more than I want to keep my money?

    Absolutely.

    So, in that circumstance, I choose what I MOST want. I MOST want to live so I give him my money.

    This is where people like Winman miss it all of the time. They come in shouting "People choose to do things they don't want to do all of the time!!! People choose to go to the gym when they'd rather stay home and rest! People choose to turn down the fried chicken when they really want to eat it!!! People choose what they don't want all of the time!!!"

    But what Winman and these folks miss is that you are STILL choosing what you MOST (that is the key word) want.

    You want to stay home- sure. But MORE THAN you want to stay home, you want to get in shape. So you choose what you MOST want.

    You want to eat the fried chicken- sure. But MORE than you want to eat the fried chicken, you want to get your cholesterol under control. So in turning down the fried chicken you are still choosing what you MOST want.

    Our will is bound to our desires.

    Our desires are bound to our make-up.

    Our make-up is the result of ___________________.

    Whatever you put in that blank is what ultimately causes you to choose what you choose at any given moment.

    Choices are NOT contra-causal. Only God is uncaused. And choices are not self-caused. Only God is self-caused. Choices are caused by desires which are caused by one's make-up which is caused by ________________.
     
  7. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

    Brother Rick, you're preaching to the choir here. However, it's only a matter of time before Romans 7 get posted in this thread. Just you watch...........
     
  8. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wow Willis, you must have ESPN!

    Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

    Now, do you REALLY want to call the word of God a liar?

    Think about that question awhile.
     
  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,559
    Likes Received:
    274
    Wow, Winman has finally come around to the truth of Total Depravity.

    What caused this change Winman?
     
  10. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    18,930
    Likes Received:
    96
    To quote John Wayne......."that el be the day"
     
  11. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    So you are saying the desire above is what you want the most? Keeping your money and living is not a greater desire? The robber repenting and allowing you to keep your money is not a greater desire? That would be what you MOST want regardless.
     
    #11 webdog, Dec 4, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 4, 2013
  12. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    Are you saying a God given desire like immortality (Ecc. 3:11) is not pleasing? How is man able to not choose this greatest desire...that God instilled in him?
     
  13. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    How is this tied to total depravity? Seems like an awfully big leap.
     
  14. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    18,930
    Likes Received:
    96
    Web..... its a joke:smilewinkgrin:
     
  15. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,559
    Likes Received:
    274
    Leap? How anyone could peruse Ro 7 and NOT see the doctrine of the utter helplessness of the natural man is beyond me.

    And no, I wasn't joking.

    [add]

    "What caused this change Winman?"

    OK, I WAS joking there.
     
    #15 kyredneck, Dec 4, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 4, 2013
  16. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    18,930
    Likes Received:
    96
    I would use the word "Eternity" vs immortality....but thats me.

    11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
     
  17. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    18,930
    Likes Received:
    96
    Then you haven't interacted with Winman near enough! Wait for it.
     
  18. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    18,930
    Likes Received:
    96
    see :laugh:
     
  19. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    Same meaning. The Hebrew literally reads the time beyond the present if memory serves me correctly. This is speaking of eternal life.
     
  20. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    How anyone can see total inability in that verse is beyond me unless you think a spirit filled Paul was unable to do anything but sin.
     

Share This Page

Loading...