Could Jesus have refused to die on the cross for our sins?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Craigbythesea, Feb 10, 2004.

  1. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
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    Jesus “emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross” But while in that state, “He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered.” But could Jesus have decided to disobey His Father had he chosen to do so? Could Jesus have refused to die on the cross for our sins?

    What do you believe?

    7. but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
    8. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
    9. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
    10. so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    11. and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
    12. So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
    13. for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. Phil. 2:7-13 NASB 1995 Update

    Heb 2:18 For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted. (NASB 1995 Update)

    Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. (KJV)

    41. And He withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and He knelt down and began to pray,
    42. saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done." Luke 22:41-42 NASB 1995 Update
     
  2. blackbird

    blackbird
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    No! And aren't you glad He didn't refuse??? Aren't you glad He did die?? He's the only one who COULD die! He's the only one who WOULD die! He's the only one who SHOULD'NT have died!!!

    Refusal to die would have meant Jesus was a little bit less than 100% God! See, 'cause thats all it would have took!!! Just being a little bit less than 100% God and Jesus wouldn't have made the move to the cross!!!

    Blackbird
     
  3. following-Him

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    Blackbird, I couldn't have put it better myself.

    Blessings

    Sheila
     
  4. BroChris

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    I see where you are coming from, blackbird and followinghim, but I think there is a little bit more to it than that. If it was impossible for Jesus to refuse, then it was impossible for Him to sin. If He could not possibly sin, then he was not human. I think Baptists as a whole tend to stress Christ's divinity to the extent of forgetting his humanity.

    I think the question cannot be answered. It seeks to answer whether Jesus was more God or more human. This is setting His two absolute natures against one another, and seeking to see which one is truly not absolute. I affirm that Jesus had the capability of sinning, yet would not ultimately sin. This is confirmed by the fact that He was truly tempted in every way, and did not sin. I don't think we should hold one truth higher than the other, because both are important when we seek to understand the person of Christ.
     
  5. Artimaeus

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    Jesus could not/cannot be anything other than what He is. It is a misunderstanding of scripture to conclude that Jesus was ever in peril of sinning. It was a done deal from eternity past. He is our example of what humans could be without sin. He is our example of how we are to live, of how we are to be submissive to the Father, of how we are to interact with each other. To ask if He could have sinned or disobeyed the Father or even to be out of sync with the Father is to ask if perfect could be different and still be perfect. The answer is an unequivical, "No".
     
  6. HankD

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    OHOH, here we go with our Annual Impeccability Inquisition.

    Problem:
    If He could sin He was not fully God.
    If He could not sin He was not fully man.

    Gather the wood.
    Start up the Te Deum.

    This perennial dunnybrook reminds me of a song I liked when I was a young man.

    When an irresistible force meets an immovable object,
    Somethins gotta give, somethins gotta give etc…

    HankD
     
  7. just-want-peace

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    If Jesus "COULD NOT" sin, what was the purpose of the temptations?

    If He "COULD NOT" opt out of the cross, why did He ask the Father to "--let this cup pass from me; never-the-less not my will but Thine be done--"

    BroChris sez:
    BroChris sums it up pretty good!

    This same idea should be considered in a multitude of other posts as well, since none of us have the complete wisdom of God! All of us are still "-seeing through a dark glass--"
     
  8. Artimaeus

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    There's a problem with the problem. The problem is, the first statement is true but the second one isn't. The ability to sin is not one of the definitions of humanity. Jesus was not God's second attempt at creating a better human. We have a fully human being but with the spirit of God not the spirit of a man.
     
  9. HankD

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    OK let me qualify it:
    The problem is that those on the one side say...

    "If He could sin He was not fully God"

    those on the other side say...

    "If He could not sin He was not fully man."

    OK commence the warring...

    BTW Art, I agree with your analysis.

    HankD
     
  10. Artimaeus

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    Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

    I have heard theses verses preached saying that this shows that Christ NEEDED to be tempted so that HE could empathise with US. That HE needed to learn what WE were going through. This is the same kind of thinking that would portray Christ as agonizing over Satan's pathetic attempts to get Him to sin. Jesus already knew and He already understood eons before but WE would not be convinced until we saw it for ourselves. If a murderer broke into my house and offered me one million dollars to kill my beloved and intensely cherished wife, how tempted do you think I would be? Yes, Satan tempted Jesus, but the temptaion fell on "deaf ears". So, Why did Jesus go through the temptation? To prove to us that He did understand and to give us an example of what to do in times of trial and temptation. The temptation isn't much of a temptation if you are qware that the full outcome would be worse than the fullfillment. Unless you question Jesus' judgement, you must conclude that Jesus wasn't suseptable to Satan.
     
  11. HankD

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    Here is my take on the following question:

    To prove to His creation that He "COULD NOT" sin even though He came in the flesh (sarx).

    Jesus Christ, the Second person of the Holy Trinity came in the flesh as a mortal human being, subject to death. But He would not/could not sin no matter what the price even if it meant the ultimate price for mortal flesh - death.

    As the Hebrews 2:17 passage that was quoted says "he himself hath suffered being tempted".

    This is why He can be our compassionate High Priest, He, though He never sinned, suffered as we do from temptation.

    HankD
     
  12. Craigbythesea

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    Where there is no possibility of yielding, there is no temptation, but merely a pointless suggestion. Where there is no possibility of yielding, there is no temptation to suffer .
     
  13. Precepts

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    Hmm? I always thought the reason satan tempted Him was so Jesus could rebuke him to his face and show that He was truly the Son of God and then satan would remember Him when Jesus demanded the keys to death, hell, and the grave from satan.

    I'm sorry Jesus died for my sin, aren't you? I mean I am glad He laid down His life for me and raised Himself up on that third and glorious day, but I don't find any gladness or joy of any kind that he had to die for my sin. Calvary's Cross is not a very pretty scene, that's what gets the attention of sinners when they finally get the picture of Christ on that cruel Roman Cross dying for them. My joy and gladness comes in when He Ressurrected Himself, showing He has power over all flesh and putting all powers and principalities under His Authority.
     
  14. Craigbythesea

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    "Satan tempted Jesus so that He could rebuke him to his face"? :eek: :eek: :eek: No, I don't think so! Satan tempted Jesus hoping that He would sin and therefore be unable to die in our place for our sins. :(
     
  15. HankD

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    Dear brother Craig, both can be true.
    Jesus rebuked satan putting him in his place.
    On the other hand that satan tempted Jesus hoping that He would sin doesn't really answer the question:

    Was Jesus not able to sin or able not to sin?

    I would rather say that satan tempted Jesus to see if He could (not would) sin.

    HankD
     
  16. HankD

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    Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

    John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

    HankD
     
  17. Craigbythesea

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    The Scriptures explicitly teach that teaches was so sorely tempted to sin that it caused him to "suffer." If yielding to temptation was not possible for Jesus, He would not have suffered because of it.
     
  18. HankD

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    Where in Scripture?

    Jesus suffered even with having to come in contact with sin...

    Matthew 17:17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.

    How much more He suffered when Satan was arrogantly in His face with sin.

    "Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity..."

    HankD
     
  19. Craigbythesea

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    Heb 2:18 For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted. (NASB 1995 Update)


    Hank,

    The Greek word translated suffer” in Mattew 17:17 is an entirely different, unrelated word meaning “to put up with.”

    Matthew 17:17 And Jesus answered and said, "You unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring him here to Me." NASB 1995 Update

    Matthew 17:17 "O unbelieving and perverse generation," Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me." NIV

    Dear Brother Hank,

    The love with which Jesus loves you is no where in the scriptures better illustrated than by His willingness to genuinely suffer on our behalf as a genuine human being. It took only a few hours for Jesus to die on the cross. Both of the men on either side of him suffered a worse physical death, as have countless men and women throughout history. What was unique about the physical death of Jesus was that He knew, day after day, moment by moment, what lay ahead; and yet moment by moment, day by day, Jesus chose to not sin so that he could go to that cross. Moment by moment, day by day, Jesus was not only tempted to sin as we are, but He knew that with every temptation was the opportunity to escape from the cross, for had He chosen to sin, in even the slightest sin, His destiny of the cross would have ceased to exist. In this is the love of Christ for you.
     
  20. HankD

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    Did Jesus possess a sin nature?

    HankD
     

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