Could Judas have chosen to not betray Jesus?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by reformedbeliever, Feb 28, 2007.

  1. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,306
    Likes Received:
    0
    It is a simple question. Not too simple an answer. Could Judas have chosen to not betray Jesus? Seems the Gospel says that he could not have. Anyone?
     
  2. tinytim

    tinytim
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/tim2.jpg>

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2003
    Messages:
    11,250
    Likes Received:
    0
    Could the Cowboys have won the Superbowl?
    They didn't, God knew they wouldn't.
    (I only mentioned the Cowboys because that is my favorite team)
    ((Of course God predestined them to be my favorite team))

    Here are the facts:
    Judas betrayed Christ.
    God knew he would.
    We can't undo what God knows we are going to do.
    Judas had to.
     
  3. russell55

    russell55
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    It depends on what you mean by "could"?

    Was he forced to betray Jesus? No.

    Was there even the smallest possibility that he wouldn't betray Jesus? No.

    Which alternative (whether to betray Jesus or not) he would choose was certain. At the same time, it was a free choice, and was compelled by the desires of Judas's own heart.
     
    #3 russell55, Feb 28, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 28, 2007
  4. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    Don't think a team could be compared to Judas, Tim, unless you felt betrayed....LOL

    But about Judas. At some point, some time before the betrayal, he had freely chosen (not Calvinistically chosen) to start down a certain path. Love of money? Desire for power, assuming Jesus would take the throne? Somewhere back there, there were a series of choices that did not have to be, and which Jesus Himself would have been quietly attempting to influence against (as He does with all of us).

    Somewhere back before the betrayal, Judas became set on his own goals and his own desires until he was finally handed over to the lie. At that point, there was no turning back, and the betrayal was inevitable.

    If it had not been Judas, it would have been someone else. And yes, God knew what Judas would choose. But, as an old pastor of mine once said, that is the Holy Paradox. God knew, but Judas freely chose. I would say, however, that the betrayal itself was the final result of a long road he had been walking for some time, refusing to turn back.
     
  5. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2007
    Messages:
    1,155
    Likes Received:
    0
    If you accept this paradox why don't you accept the paradox of "God predestined (in the "Calvinist" sense), we freely choose"? They are both paradoxs, why is one acceptable but the other is not?
     
  6. Martin

    Martin
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    0
    ==I think this question makes a good example of who will stick with Scripture and who will go with their opinions. What does the Scriptures say about this issue? Well, it is very clear:

    "If you know these things, you are blessed if you do them. I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, he who eats my bread has lifted up his heel against me" -John 13:17-18

    So here we see that Judas' role is part of prophecy.

    We continue:

    "Jesus answered them, Did I myself not choose you, the twelve, and you one of you is a devil? Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him" -John 6:70-71

    In this passage we see Judas' nature (a devil).

    We continue:

    "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your Name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled" -John 17:12

    Here we get a summary of the last two points. Judas' role was part of Biblical prophecy and Judas was one who was destined to perish.

    What is the point?

    The point is there is no need to ask if Judas could have done differently. Why not? Because he did what Scripture said he would do. It was all part of God's plan (Matt 26:24). As John 17:12 and 6:71 makes clear Judas was a child of the devil and he did what children of the devil do.
     
  7. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    Because the Calvinist predestination is, from what I read, not just non-scriptural, but it is anti-scriptural. God predestined what we would become if we believed; He predestined how it would take place (through the Holy Spirit), but the Scripture does not point to the concept of God choosing ahead of time who would be saved. In fact, the main thrust of a good part of Scripture is a plea to turn to God and BE saved. That would be nonsense if Calvinist predestination were true.

    Getting back to Judas, however, he became a child of the devil through his decisions just the way God has chosen to adopt us as His children if we choose the Truth, and thus Him.
     
  8. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,306
    Likes Received:
    0
    Helen, please look at what you said. "God predestined what we would become *if* we believed. I thought predestination was a destiny that was preset. Maybe I'm wrong. Didn't know there was an if to it. Besides, no calvinist I know will tell you that we do not have to believe. All calvinist I know will tell you that we have to believe. I don't think anyone is saved who does not believe. That is why dwmoeller1 said that it was a paradox that God is sovereign and that men believe.
     
  9. EdSutton

    EdSutton
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    8,755
    Likes Received:
    0
    Don't mistake me for Helen, because my beard's too long, and my hair's too white! :laugh: :laugh:

    The word 'predestined' occurs four times in Scripture (NKJV). In not one of those instances does Scripture say we are "predestined" to believe. Or that we are "predestined" to a "destiny" in that sense. But it does say we are "predestined" - Well I'll just paste all four verses, here, instead.
    You got 'em. That is the only times those words are used.

    Ed
     
    #9 EdSutton, Feb 28, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 28, 2007
  10. Allan

    Allan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,888
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey Reforned,

    Haven't seen you in awhile.

    Could Judas have chosen differently?

    I don't think so.

    I don't see scripturally, that God knows every potental outcome and tries to work it out for the best case senerio which everway a man tilts at every moment.

    Why, Because God is all knowing and has not need of foreseeing. We don't fully grasp just how God knows and what it actaully entails but we do know that God knows those who are to be His (and sees them as though they are already) and those who will not be His (and sees them as though they are not already). Thus when God creates a man who will not be His, that man is called a vessel of wrath, because that man will not beleive and the wrath of God abises on him still.

    Does God predestine? - Yes
    Does Man have the responsiblity to choose truth? - Yes

    Could Judas have NOT been the betrayer. No.

    Jesus did for him everything He did for the other disciples (He even called and apointed him one of the 12) Jesus knew him by name, revealed truth, and loved him. Yet for all the grace and mercy extended toward him (just as the others) 11 were Christs and one was not.

    Is this not the example of the world and Gods extened mercy towards them. Christ's dieing for them becasue He loves His creation but they will go their own way and trodden under foot all that could have saved them (the blood of the covenant), and justly bringing or heaping to themselves condemation.
     
    #10 Allan, Feb 28, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 28, 2007
  11. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

    This doesn't fit well with the idea that He calls everyone, and *IF* they respond, *THEN* they go in the "predestined" category.

    So either God does not call everyone, or the way He calls everyone does not match the way He calls those He predestined. That's why some people have differentiated between a general call and an effectual call. But whichever way you see it, the call that ends up in justification and glorification is a RESULT of predestination.

    Now, I just know someone is going to bring up the fact that "foreknew" precedes them all, and that will bring us right back into the silly argument that "foreknew" meant "foreknew how we would choose". I call it silly because the Greek word prohibits that interpretation, but free willers can't see it any other way or else they won't be free willers anymore.
     
  12. Allan

    Allan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,888
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yawn! *stretch* and :laugh:


    Judas was called, just like the others.
     
  13. skypair

    skypair
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is an intriguing issue...

    ...because if captures more that free will vs predestination.

    You see, God foreknew what kind of man Judas was. In fact, I would suggest that Jesus chose Judas because the last anichrist will come from the midst of the Christ's disciples! If things were to play out that Israel would accept Christ, antichrist would be there to betray Christ and "take over" regardless. Doesn't 2Thes 2 tells exactly this?! And didn't Israel's future hinge upon what they would do with Jesus?

    So did God just "foreknow" Judas -- did He have a "plan" for the Judas He foreknew?

    Or did God have to "turn" Judas midlife by predestining this one particular mass of protoplasm to betray Christ? Do you realize that some Reformers claim that Judas was still saved? Why? Because he wasn't responsible for his choices.

    I think most of us would say that God knew the outcome of every chance that Judas had to be saved and knew that he would not.

    skypair
     
    #13 skypair, Mar 1, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 1, 2007
  14. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    What is the difference here? Calvinism believes in free choices. Man's choices, like God's, are constrained only by his nature. He is free to do all consistent with his nature; he is free to do all that he wants. Calvinism doesn't believe that Judas was forced to betray Christ, or forced to reject him. Judas did just what he wanted to do, and he is completely responsible for it.

    So if God knew the outcome, was Judas able to change his mind when he was being taught by Jesus?

    Here again, we see the great problem with the "other side." Since God knows all things, and his knowledge is both eternal and perfect, people really don't have a choice anyway because they can't change their minds. And so you haven't accomplished anything by avoiding God's sovereign wise purposes in determinism. You have merely emasculated God and made him a pawn, unable to prevent what he knew was going to happen, and what he knew would be displeasing to him.

    Furthermore, you believe in God who knew that people would reject him and go to hell, and he created them anyway, thus damning them to hell when he could have foreseen their unbelief and lovingly chosen not to create them.

    Think about it: How loving is it to allow someone to come into existence knowing that they will be eternally damned? If God really loved the world, and knew all things, wouldn't his love cause him to create only those who he knew would be saved?

    You see, your system doesn't solve the problem at all. It just creates more because it removes thigns from the realm of God's gracious purposes.

    That, in conjunction with the teaching of the Bible that God chooses men to be saved is why I reject your position. It is not what God revealed to us; it is contradictory to what God revealed to us.
     
  15. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,306
    Likes Received:
    0
    Howdy Allan. The question I asked was for the purpose of debate and to *maybe* learn from one another. I can agree with almost all of what you posted. Of course, I believe in particular redemption, so that would probably be where we disagree.

    There is no way that Judas could have chosen differently than he did, anymore than Adam and Eve could have chosen differently than they did. Christ stood slain from before the foundation of the world. Sin, or wrong choices started with Adam and Eve.

    Is God all knowing and absolutely sovereign? Yes. Can we choose differently than what God absolutely knows we will choose? No. Are we responsible for the choices we make? Yes. Do we make choices in a vaccum? No. God in His providence, causes all things to work together...

    Pretty awesome God. His sovereignty and the responsibility of man will remain an antinomy. I can't put my arms around it. I believe it because God's word says so.
     
  16. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    To be more accurate, Judas was chosen. He wasn't called in the way that fits "those He called He also justified".

    By the way, I can do a hog call, I can do a bird call, I can call a dog, I can call my friend on the telephone. Context is everything, and the context above is from Romans.
     
  17. Allan

    Allan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,888
    Likes Received:
    0
    So you are saying that Judas mingled with the crowd and just ended up as one of the twelve that Jesus called, empowered, sent out preaching. Pretty silly of Jesus to ordain a man who is a devil to go out and preach and cast out demons.

    But then again, 'many are called but few are chosen'


    Outside of the fun, I still maintain this concerning Judas.
    Judus was chosen, ordained an Apostle, empowered to cast out demons, authorized to proclaim the good news of the Kingdom of God, sat at the feet of Jesus as Christ revealed biblical truths (except two specific ones - His death and resurrection). He was given all that Christ gave to the others but he did not recieve the truth. All that was bestowed on his behalf was rejected at his behest and the very reason he betrayed Jesus and Jesus KNEW he would.

    About receiving truth (belief) is to salvation just as rejecting truth is the reason for God giving them up or over to their unrighteousness. (that to is in Romans)
     
    #17 Allan, Mar 1, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 1, 2007
  18. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    Judas was chosen for the specific purpose of betraying Him.
     
  19. Allan

    Allan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,888
    Likes Received:
    0
    Judas could have betrayed him as a simple disciple, but Jesus set him to the position of Apostle. You are to flippant and dismisive about all that Judas given BEFORE betraying Jesus.

    Judas is the prime illistration of all that God has given and done for the world and still it chooses it's lie over Gods truth.
     
  20. AAA

    AAA
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2007
    Messages:
    524
    Likes Received:
    0
    If he did not betray JESUS, then GOD would be a lier, because God said he would betray Jesus...............

    :godisgood:
     

Share This Page

Loading...