Could you clear a few things please ?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Spear, Sep 28, 2009.

  1. Spear

    Spear
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    236
    Likes Received:
    0
    Some concepts, sometimes used as " accusations " :) (am joking, but ... ;)) often come back here, and i have it hard to understand these, considering the "simple" political view i have of the US politics, resumed to Democrats, Republicans, and Ralf Nader :).

    I often read about libertarians, liberals ... what do these exactly mean, and can one put them on the political scale, or are these concepts not limited to a political wing, as " conservative " ie, meaning you can be a conservative democrat.

    Help ! ;)

    Thanks !
     
  2. Salty

    Salty
    Expand Collapse
    20,000 Posts Club
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    22,086
    Likes Received:
    218
    To give a very simple reply.

    There are two main issues: personal liberty & finance.

    A liberal is very open minded about both - ie very few laws prohibiting what a person may want to do. Yet on the other hand, they like a lot of laws to protect you - even from yourself. In finance a liberal thinks it is the govt responsibility to help out people no matter what.

    A conservative basically believes that that there should be few laws to protect you you from yourself. (ie they are strong on gun rights). They believe that laws should mainly be to protect you from yourself. In finance, they are strong believers in capitalism, that taxes should be kept low and only for the common use - ie govt welfare programs should be kept at a minimum.

    A libertarian believes in personal liberty, but little govt ( esp govt financial assistance)

    The best way to give an example is that a:

    A liberal say "you should be allowed an abortion and the govt should pay for it

    A conservative says " there should be no abortions"

    A libertarian says " if you want an abortion, thats ok, but you pay for it yourself."

    In the US many Southern Democrats tend to be more conservative then their Northern brethren. This is due in part to States Rights (of which the War Between the States was fought - slavery was a secondary reason - contrary to popular belief).
    Also, larger cites tend to be more liberal, where those in rural areas tend to be more conservative.

    As in any case, there are varying degrees of liberalism and conservatism, as well as the precept.

    For example, some thing that George W. Bush was a right wing extremest, yet many on the right think that Bush was way too liberal.

    Hope this helps

    Salty
     
  3. Spear

    Spear
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    236
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks for your help !

    So, in fact, what we call socialism (not speaking of USSR socialism) is liberal in USA ?

    Here, " libéral " means someone who is for full capitalism, " the market will regulate itself " " no intervention from the state, or minimalist " " no minimal salary should exist " ...
     
  4. Matt Black

    Matt Black
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    9,141
    Likes Received:
    0
    The term 'liberal' has to be one of the most confusing words ever! Its meaning varies both temporally and spatially. It varies temporally in that its original meaning stems from the French Revolution, with its connotations of liberty, greater freedom for the individual and an opposition to conservatism (the latter being in those days the idea of maintenance of the status quo, and greater democracy. In continental Europe, inspired by its revolutionary birth, liberalism became associated with nationalism and the right of self-determination. Thus the largely failed Revolutions of 1848-9 were both liberal and national in nature (especially in what became Italy and Germany). In Britain, in contrast, liberalism became characterised by an alliance of the odd bedfellows of free market laissez-faire capitalism and other hallmarks of what Americans would today call libertarianism on the one hand, and progressive reform (widening of the electoral franchise, factory and mines regulation and, later, social legislation such as Old Age Pensions (=US Social Security) in 1908) on the other hand stemming from its opposition to the conservative position of maintenance of the status quo. This libertarian-progressive tension still characterises British liberalism today by and large and is represented officially by our Liberal Democrat Party (doubtless a tautology bu US standards!), although its agenda was also largely adopted by Tony Blair's 'New' Labour Party and to an extent our Conservative Party. The mainland European model, shorn of its discredited nationalist associations (after the debacle of Naziism) is similar but with more of an emphasis on the progressive 'wing' (think European Social Democrat parties) and I think it is that version which has largely been exported to the US in the 20th century. Possibly because 'socialist' has historically been such a dirty word in US politics and therefore a distinctively socialist party has never really taken off there, various socialist elements have crept in under the umbrella of 'liberalism', which leads to a degree of conflation of the terms although compared to Europe, socialism remains pretty weak in the US.
     
  5. DrRandyGrace

    DrRandyGrace
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2007
    Messages:
    137
    Likes Received:
    0
    It's really quite simple. If you disagree with me, you are obviously a liberal. :smilewinkgrin:
     
  6. Spear

    Spear
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    236
    Likes Received:
    0
    :D:applause::1_grouphug:
     
  7. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    A lot of us libertarians say otherwise: www.l4l.org
     
  8. Salty

    Salty
    Expand Collapse
    20,000 Posts Club
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    22,086
    Likes Received:
    218
    OPPS should read ...to protect you from others


    From Ken
    Originally Posted by SALTCITYBAPTIST [​IMG]
    A libertarian says " if you want an abortion, thats ok, but you pay for it yourself."
    A lot of us libertarians say otherwise: www.l4l.org

    Glad to hear that
    Ken, what % of libertarians would you say are pro-life?

    Salty
     
  9. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would say 30-40%. Bob Barr, the 2008 LP presidential candidate, is pro-life.
     
  10. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,292
    Likes Received:
    782

    Are you sure about that. I thought he pulled a McCain and became pro life for the election.
     
  11. alatide

    alatide
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2009
    Messages:
    974
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree that McCain, like the preceeding Republican presidential candidates, wqas not really pro-life. He simply mouthed the words so the gullible Christian Right would vote for him. Therefore, a vote for McCain was a vote for murdering babies.
     
  12. sag38

    sag38
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    4,394
    Likes Received:
    1
    And you actually expect us to take you seriously?
     
  13. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, I am positive.

    • Voted YES on banning Family Planning funding in US aid abroad. (May 2001)
    • Voted YES on federal crime to harm fetus while committing other crimes. (Apr 2001)
    • Voted YES on banning partial-birth abortions. (Apr 2000)
    • Voted YES on barring transporting minors to get an abortion. (Jun 1999)
    - www.ontheissues.org/GA/Bob_Barr.htm
     
  14. alatide

    alatide
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2009
    Messages:
    974
    Likes Received:
    0
    You should address that to RevM. That's what he said, that mcCain had previously not been very vocal against abortion and changed before the election to get the support of the Christian Right.
     

Share This Page

Loading...