Council of Trent

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Beth, Mar 1, 2009.

  1. Beth

    Beth
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    I thought this wiki article might be helpful. As an ex-catholic, saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, I am well aware of the doctrines of the Catholic church. Many Baptists, I believe, are unaware of exactly what Rome teaches.

    The decrees and doctrines formed at this Council are officially binding. They have never been rescinded.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Trent

    As Baptists, we need to be aware especially of the following:

    The council issued condemnations on what it defined as Protestant heresies and defined Church teachings in the areas of Scripture and Tradition, Original Sin, Justification, Sacraments, the Eucharist in Holy Mass and the veneration of saints. It issued numerous reform decrees.

    Justification (sixth session) was declared to be offered upon the basis of faith and good works as opposed to the Protestant doctrine of faith alone and faith was treated as a progressive work. The idea of man being utterly passive under the influence of grace was also rejected.

    The greatest weight in the Council's decrees is given to the sacraments. The seven sacraments were reaffirmed and the Eucharist pronounced to be a true propitiatory sacrifice as well as a sacrament, in which the bread and wine were consecrated into the Eucharist (thirteenth and twenty-second sessions)

    Ordination (twenty-third session) was defined to imprint an indelible character on the soul. The priesthood of the New Testament takes the place of the Levitical priesthood. To the performance of its functions, the consent of the people is not necessary. (This last one leads to their doctrine that priests bypass purgatory and go straight to Heaven. They are given a different character than the people when they are ordained a priest. Perhaps this is why there was so much cover-up of the pedophilia? Surely the actions of those men contradicted the indelible character these men were supposed to receive?)

    -Your sister in Christ,
    Beth
     
    #1 Beth, Mar 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 1, 2009
  2. Priscilla Ann

    Priscilla Ann
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    Beth:

    Thanks for the link to the article. Many people don't realize that the Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent still stand. I am an ex-Catholic, saved by grace at the age of 38.

    One of the books on my shelves is the Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent, along with a copy of the Catechism and the Handbook of Indulgences. These items are all very helpful when visiting with Catholic friends and family members. Many of them think that I left the Catholic Church because I didn't really understand what the church teaches. In fact, I left the because I do understand what the Catholic Church teaches, and know that it is not consistent with scripture.
     
  3. OldRegular

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    Beth

    Thanks for bringing this issue to the attention of Baptists. I have a copy of the Canons and have used them in debates with Roman Catholics on another Forum.

    Most Baptists are sadly ignorant of Church History. They are particularly ignorant of the Roman Catholic position as defined by the Council of Trent. Therefore, they fail to see the danger of error as it creeps into Baptist Churches. I used to tell my Sunday School class that the Roman Catholic Church did not spring into being full blown overnight but that it took hundreds of years to become what they are now. Therefore, we must be very sensitive to any error that the Church adopts.
     
  4. OldRegular

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    Beth

    i thought it might be instructive to post one more very important statement from your source, something I suspect that even more people are ignorant of:

    "The Council of Trent, delayed and interrupted several times because of political or religious disagreements, was a major reform council and the most impressive embodiment of the ideals of the Counter-Reformation. It would be over 300 years until the next Ecumenical Council. When announcing Vatican II, Pope John XXIII stated that the precepts of the Council of Trent continue to the modern day, a position that was reaffirmed by Pope Paul VI."
     
  5. Beth

    Beth
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    that's a good idea

    Priscilla Ann, we have the Catechism, but not the other two...I'll talk with my husband about getting them as well. I agree, very helpful in witnessing to Catholics.

    Beth
     
  6. Beth

    Beth
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    yes

    I am hopeful that the reason some do not see the danger of ecumenism is a lack of education....most people who have not had direct experience with the Roman Catholic Church simply do not know what it teaches.

    I agree with your post!

    Beth
     
  7. 4His_glory

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    As one who lives in and ministers in a country where the RCC is the sate church, I say thanks as well. I can not understand how one who profess to be an evangelical Christian is willing to insult the gospel by ecumenical cooperation with the RCC.

    Another helpful link in understanding Catholic theology is this online, searchable, English translation of the Catholic Catechism.
     
  8. Thinkingstuff

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    Yet you mentioned on a previous post on another thread that there are Catholics who are saved. So, then what are the commonalities they have with saved protestants? Not that I'm an ecumenicalist

    Also hasn't the Church futher developed the council of trent in more explanitory terms? For instance the statement about there is no salvation outside of the Church doesn't quite mean non catholics aren't saved? Isn't there clarification issues that have only resently been addressed?
     
  9. bound

    bound
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    I don't know anyone who is an orthodox Christian who doesn't claim that "outside of the Church there is no salvation"... the disagreement is 'where' does the Church exist?

    Remember, the Church or ecclesia isn't a worldly institution but the People of God. In Baptist parlance it is the Body of Believers proper. So I don't know anyone who doesn't claim "outisde of the ecclesia there is no salvation"... for too long the Roman Church has struggled over the centuries with their claim of authority over this ecclesia and recognizing it's proper boundaries. I know that since Vatican II the Roman Church has went to great lengths to broaden it's historically narrow recognition of the graces present beyonds it's own boundaries but we must recognize that these older more narrow definitions still exist and are not denied by the Apostolic See of Rome.

    This creates a kind of contradiction which Roman Catholics have been struggling with over Pre and Post Vatican II proclamations. I admit that it's a little disingenuous for Baptists to gravitate toward the most narrow proclamations and not recognize the boarder proclamations of Vatican II but the point must be made that these more narrow definitions have not been denied although the argument can be made that they have been officially broadened.
     
  10. Marcia

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    Beth, thanks for posting this info. I have a Catechism, but I'm not a former Catholic nor does my ministry deal with them much. However, I have it because of the dangers I have been seeing of evangelicals overlooking the differences in the theology of the RC Church and evangelical faith, and the influences coming into the evangelical church from Roman Catholics and those sympathetic to their views.

    A good book on Roman Catholics is Roman Catholics and Evangelicals: Agreements and Differences by Norman Geisler. Not light reading - 500 pages and quite detailed!
     
  11. Priscilla Ann

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    I also have the book: Romans Catholics and Evangelicals: Agreements and Differences by Norman Geisler. I even loaned it to my Baptist pastor to use, as at least 25% of our congretation is ex-Catholic. The book is a very fair, honest assessment of the differences between Evangelicals and Catholics. It does not bash either side, but objectively explains the differences.

    I've heard it said that the most dangerous false teachings are those that most closely resemble the truth. That is the way I see Catholicism. I was a practicing Catholic for the first 38 years of my life; and I do believe that there are Catholics who are saved. Having said that, I long for my parents and sister to know the joy and assurance of salvation that can only come by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone.

    Even many practicing Catholics are not familiar with all that is in the Catechism or the Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent. Or they believe that Trent no longer accurately represents Catholic Doctrine. When discussing issues of faith with Catholics, it really is helpful to have a copy of official Catholic teaching.

    God Bless!

    PA
     
  12. Marcia

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    So glad that book is being put to good use! There are quite a few former Catholics in my church as well. Many of my friends at church were raised Catholic.

    May the Lord grant you wisdom and opportunity in witnessing to your family. It's wonderful that you are arming yourself with tools to help you give the truth!
     
  13. Beth

    Beth
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    Thanks, Marcia

    I'll look for that one also!
     
  14. 4His_glory

    4His_glory
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    I should have clarified what I meant with my comment. I believe that God can save a person in any situation including one within a false religion. His grace can prevail despite false teaching. However, I believe that if a Catholic is truly regenerated he will eventually leave the RCC because of clear theological difference regarding salvation.

    As far as explanatory terms go, the RCC has not changed their position regarding salvation being obtained through the sacraments as a means of meriting the grace of God. Often times they will use language that appeals to the evangelical world. This is a result of recent ecumenical emphasis.

    However, just because the RCC may talk of grace and faith, when one examines their teachings on the matter we find that their position is far from being biblical and steeped in tradition, papal decrees, and council decisions.

    Reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church, we quickly see that no amount of clarifying can change doctrine such as these:
     
  15. Beth

    Beth
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    Read this

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19692094/

    Clearly, the Roman Catholic Church has not changed their position.

    LORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy - Pope Benedict XVI has reasserted the universal primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says Orthodox churches were defective and that other Christian denominations were not true churches.
     
  16. Beth

    Beth
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    I agree

    HTML:
    I should have clarified what I meant with my comment. I believe that God can save a person in any situation including one within a false religion. His grace can prevail despite false teaching. However, I believe that if a Catholic is truly regenerated he will eventually leave the RCC because of clear theological difference regarding salvation.
    
    You are so right! No doubt, the Lord can save anyone in any circumstance. However, as we grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ, we will be listening to His voice.

    Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
    Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

    When witnessing to a Catholic man two weekends ago, I pointed out to him that the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth. (He was asserting that the Holy Spirit had led him TO the Catholic church from the Methodist church, sigh)

    Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    God, in His Word, clearly asserts here that He will not leave a believer in deception. Through the HOly Spirit's sanctification of the believer, we gradually leave sin, understand deception, have a clearer grasp of the truth. With the exception of Naaman, I cannot find a single instance in the Bible where God lets a believer worship a false god. (Naaman wasn't worshiping Baal, but was going into that temple to help his master)

    The lord of the eucharist, which is a bloodless sacrifice to be sacrificed continually in the mass, is not the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Therefore, being a false god, a born again Christian cannot simultaneously worship a false lord and our Savior Jesus Christ.
     

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