Counting the cost

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Iconoclast, Aug 31, 2016.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    In the classic book on holiness by J.C. Ryle we find this;

    Question.....are we our brothers keeper on this issue?

    How do we go about it?


    The people I speak of are not thoughtless about religion; they think a good deal about it. They are not ignorant of religion; they know the outlines of it pretty well. But their great defect is that they are not "rooted and grounded" in their faith. Too often they have picked up their knowledge second-hand, from being in religious families, or from being trained in religious ways — but have never worked it out by their own inward experience. Too often they have hastily taken up a profession of religion under the pressure of circumstances, from sentimental feelings, from emotional excitement or from a vague desire to do like others around them — but without any solid work of grace in their hearts. People like these are in a position of immense danger. They are precisely those, if Bible examples are worth anything, who need to be exhorted to count the cost.

    1]For lack of counting the cost, myriads of the children of Israel perished miserably in the wilderness between Egypt and Canaan

    2]For lack of counting the cost, many of our Lord Jesus Christ's hearers went back after a time and "walked no more with Him" (John 6:66).

    3]For lack of counting the cost, King Herod returned to his old sins and destroyed his soul.


    4]For lack of counting the cost, Demas forsook the company of Paul, forsook the gospel, forsook Christ, forsook Heaven.

    5]For lack of counting the cost, the hearers of powerful evangelical preachers often come to miserable ends

    6]For lack of counting the cost, hundreds of professed converts, under religious revivals — go back to the world after a time and bring disgrace on religion.

    7]For lack of counting the cost, the children of religious parents often turn out badly and bring disgrace on Christianity.
     
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  2. JamesL

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    There's no cost to count in order to have eternal life. Where would someone get such a heinous notion?

    Jesus said "whoever will, let him take of the water of life - WITHOUT COST"

    the one who's counting the cost for eternal life will have no part.

    Where does scripture say those who left Jesus in John 6 didn't count a cost ? ?
    They left because they did not BELIEVE IN Him. That's found in John 6:64, btw

    Where does scripture say anything about Demas "forsaking heaven" ? ?

    So much for sola scriptura. More like sola philosophy. And sounds thoroughly Arminian. Self effort all the way
     
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  3. Iconoclast

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    JamesL,

    Some have believed Jesus on this......
    25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,

    26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

    27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

    28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?

    29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,

    30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.

    31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?[/QUOTE]
     
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  4. JamesL

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    [/QUOTE][Edited]
    The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost

    [Edited]He said that no one can come to Him without being drawn by the Father? And that it is granted by the Father?

    [Edited]

    Or is it possible that someone doesn't understand the difference between believing and being a disciple?
     
    #5 JamesL, Sep 1, 2016
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  5. Iconoclast

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    Your post suggesting such profane things is unfortunate.
    Jesus knew all things perfectly.
    Looks as if you have a defective understanding of these things however. In fact it seems like that is the way it is on most every doctrine. You believe you see what no one else in church history see's very clearly.
    If anything.....what you offer here shows confused thinking on your part as the objections are not connected to the topic.
     
    #6 Iconoclast, Sep 1, 2016
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  6. Martin Marprelate

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    Salvation is free, but it costs everything.
    It involves dying to the old life and being born again; it involves humbling oneself before God; it involves mourning over one's sins, and cutting off sins that are as dear as one's right hand or right eye; it involves hungering and thirsting after righteousness; it involves being reviled and abused by all men for Christ's sake; it may involve separation from wife and family for Christ's sake (Matthew 10:34-39). Increasingly, it involves being ready to die a grizzly death because you are a follower of Christ.

    Yep! Better count the cost.
     
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  7. JamesL

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    what you posit is a lifelong process whereby no one can possibly know if he has eternal life because no one knows what the future holds.

    "Lord, I will die with you" was the insistence of one who denied Him before dawn.

    Countless men have known for sure that they have eternal life, only to deny the very existence of God at a later time. How do you know you won't do the same?

    You don't. You'd better have a certainty more solid than "you" counting the cost

    :Thumbsup
     
  8. JamesL

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    you didn't answer any of my questions, naturally. So....

    You can peddle your disguised Arminianism to someone else, thanks.

    My hope is built on nothing less
    than Jesus' blood and righteousness.

    That's a firm foundation, much more sure than your works salvation garbage
     
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  9. Internet Theologian

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    Um, like Luke 14:28? Matthew 13:44? Matthew 13:45-46? There are more, but I don't want to give you an exhaustive list of passages so you don't mangle all of them.

    You are, as usual, conflating prescriptive with descriptive, and therefore you claim others as holding a 'works salvation' because you've failed to either see this distinction, or make the distinction. I hope you can learn from this, swallow your pride, and see your plain error.
     
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  10. SovereignGrace

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    It's like peeling layers off an onion. The more layers removed the stronger the stench.
     
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  11. Internet Theologian

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    I'd say 'unbelievable' but need to stop using that word because of the obvious...
     
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  12. Martin Marprelate

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    I didn't 'posit' anything. Al I did was bring some of the Lord's own words to your attention. Do I need to give you chapter and verse. or do you know where to find them?

    As Peter found, if it depends on me and my strength, I shall let the Lord down. Fortunately, He promises never to leave me nor forsake me, so my trust is not in myself but in him, 'So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper; I will not fear: what can man do to me?"' (Hebrews 13:5-6). Others have tried Him and not found Him wanting (2 Timothy 4:16-17).
     
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  13. Iconoclast

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    If a person does not have a biblical understanding of salvation to begin with......the idea of counting the cost will seem a strange thing unto them.
    So it must be my Arminian ways that cause this. I thought I had disguised them but they must have escaped out of their hiding place.
    Why can some people miss the Forrest for the trees all the time?
     
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  14. Internet Theologian

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    People equate salvation with 'Go to heaven when you die' and they are taught this as the reason to be saved, so they 'do it' to get to heaven.

    How many are taught, or are even preaching that persons need to be saved from the wrath to come, to be saved from their sinfulness, their iniquities, and transformed; 2 Corinthians 3:18, Romans 8:18ff, Romans 6? From seeing what is going on, not too many. The problem comes from the pulpit, as you suggest, and it is tied to that false doctrine of so-called and true Arminianism, and anti-Calvinist doctrine.
     
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  15. TCassidy

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    The problem with Lordship Salvation is that many proponents state the teaching so badly that it takes on the appearance of the ultimate Arminianism. And by so doing robs the believer of his assurance (if he is honest about himself and his sinful condition) and his peace and rest in Christ.

    Much of this is rooted in the denial of carnal Christians. It is entirely possible to fail to grow in Christ, or to grow then, due to some terrible circumstance, experience a failure of our faith to fully trust in the work of Christ.

    But Paul makes it clear that brothers in Christ can be carnal, and can remain babes in Christ, and engage in that which is reprehensible, and still be "brothers" and "in Christ."

    1 Corinthians 3:1 Brothers, I couldn’t speak to you as to spiritual, but as to fleshly, as to babies in Christ.

    It is mostly our pride that forces us to say that the other guy's sin is worse than our own, so he must be lost even though I, the lesser sinner (in my own eyes), am saved. (God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. Luke 8:11)

    This attitude is exactly the opposite of that of Paul when he said in 1 Timothy 1:15 "The saying is faithful and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."

    He did not think he was better than the others. He thought he was much worse. And that is the attitude of the truly repentant heart. :)
     
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  16. Iconoclast

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    TCassidy,

    No doubt that this can happen. To teach on such a crucial issue takes really well thought out and scripturally accurate teaching. You can not cover this kind of material in little sermonettes.

    I deny there is such a Christian. I deny there are thieving Christians, I deny there are lying Christians, I deny there are murdering Christians.

    Are there Christians who grow at a really slow, or retarded rate....yes....
    Can real Christians commit acts of sin that are fleshly.....yes
    Is there a class of Christians that are not controlled by the Spirit, but somehow remain under the dominion of the flesh.....no.
    There are only two men spoken of here in romans 8;
    5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

    6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

    11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

    13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

    14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


    We all sin.....we fail....but God does not have undisciplined children;
    5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

    6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

    7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

    8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

    9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

    10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

    11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

    TC........what Paul does do here is rebuke them for behaving" as if" they were unsaved men, as if they were unsaved natural men who are carnal......it is a rebuke....not a second category of Christians......
     
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  17. Crabtownboy

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