Courtship

Hello!

Sorry but I'd have to disagree with you there. I believe there is a perfect spouse waiting for SOME of us, whoever God believes should get married. He CHOOSES who you get married to, I believe, because he already knows ahead of time.
Everybody is different and so there are such things as soul mates I believe because what would marraige be? It's two people perfect for eachother becoming one. I don't think people who get married believe there is somebody or even more people out there that are as good as their spouse or better for them, NO. They believe their spouse is the best one for them, therefor they get married.
Thats my take on it

(Edited for spelling..uh! )

 

Well I was going to agree to disagree with Abby - but ok fine - fine - bring it!

Your parents - have they ever raised their voices at each other - doesnt matter what over - just if they have - have they ever disagreed with each other?

How can something so flawed - have a perfect match that fixes our flaws - oh wait we do thats Christ - my future wife is not Jesus - especially since Jesus was male....

Since we not all Brad Pitts - or J Lo's although to me she not that attractive - there is nothing perfect out there for us - except God - No one is similar enough in their lives to fit in each other's broken molds perfectly - there will always be a flaw - teeth grinding - snoring - lousy sex

I dont want someone perfect for me - I already have God; and not only that how can we grow if there isnt some conflicts to overcome?

 

This is a big delusion that accounts for lots of problems among Christian married couples. People falsely assume that if they are married to that "One" that God supposedly has for them then everything is going to be hunky-dory, perefect bliss. Then when a conflict arises they begin to question whether they actually, in fact, married the right one. I knew a really nice Christian girl who died in a car accident at the age of 23 and unmarried. I gues her "perfect match" is just out of luck, huh?

 

That's pretty crude, Warrior.

As far as mates go, we can choose our own, with our own 'wisdom', or we can follow God first, and He will lead us to HIS choice for us. "Perfect" has nothing to do with it, actually. God is working on all of us! At least those of us who are His...

There are some strict guidelines given by Paul for Christians -- the spiritual truth of what the ancient theocracy of Israel was used to demonstrate physically: don't marry "outside". For the Israelites, outside meant outside of Israel. For the Christian, outside means outside of the Christian faith.

I have never heard of a marriage counselor who has asked the young lady what I think is the most important question of all: "Do you trust your future husband's relationship with the Lord?" For on this one issue hangs the well-being of the family in the long run.

 

Helen - I do not believe there is person God has chosen for us to marry - I do believe that there are events that God does plan out in our lives - and in some people's case that may be marriage - but it is in NO way a universally applied concept.

I believe in the areas where God does not have a specific plan - He is most anxious to work with us - and find what would work for us.

 

In other words, He knows the number of hairs on your head and each sparrow that falls, but does not have more important things in mind?

I have learned in my own life that if I follow Him closely, His choices for me are most often not what I would have thought of myself, and ALWAYS turn out better both for me and those around me.

He spent a long time preparing me for Barry, and Barry for me. One of the things we have talked about is how, in former years, we would not have given the other a second glance for one reason or another.

But the marriage we have, that we know God arranged (for neither of us had planned on getting married, or even wanted to; I tried to talk Barry out of it, in tears, two days ahead of time! I was so scared!), has been the most incredible, wonderful, godly experience of my life. God knew what He was doing.

He does in the lives of everyone. We can follow Him or not. That is the part that is our choice.

 

I disagree. We humans also eat food just like animals. Does that mean that eating debases us also? Since God created sex why would engaging in sex debase us. God created sex for most of his creation and according Genesis this was "good".

 

Thank you, ChurchBoy. I would like to add something to that. Let me preface it by saying that if we look at the items and incidents in the OT, we will find that most, if not all, are physical representations of spiritual truths: the Ark was a representation of being in Christ for salvation; Egypt is a representation of sin, etc. Jesus also used the physical world to explain spiritual truths in His parables.

Sex has been attacked so by Satan -- warped and distorted -- because of the incredible spiritual truth it represents. We are the bride of Christ. In a conversion, or born-again experience, Christ, through the Holy Spirit, enters the person and a new life is begun. There is no other symbol on earth which represents this as powerfully as does sex.

Animals breathe and eat and digest food, too. That we do does not make us more animalistic. Neither does sex. Our use of it, however, can certainly make us disgusting. However the correct use of it, between a husband and wife, is a gift and a joy and the strongest symbol we have of the joy and completion each of us will have spiritually as Christ's bride.

It is because of the very holiness and importance of this picture that it is made such a target for dragging through the mud by the ungodly.

 

I might need to rephrase myself to be more clear.
No one is perfect as we all know. No human being is absolutly perfect. So therefore when someone marries they are not marrying a "perfect" person. I'd certianly not look for that in a guy, cause I'd be quite disapointed, and if such a guy existed, I wouldn't be worthy of him because I like all people have faults {some days more than I care to admitt! } and if I were to marry a "perfect" person, he'd never be able to stand me because I'd have faults.
I simply beleive if I've trusted God to save me, and I've trusted Him with other big and small things in my life, then I can certianly trust Him about this too. And I think anyone that has met and married God's choice for them would tell you they don't want anyone else.
My pastor's wife jokes with me saying "love is blind, but marriage is a real eye-opener" and this comes from the most godly lady I've ever met. I mean she just loves her husband to death, and he feels the same about her. {I know because they are FOREVER saying it!} Now looking at this godly couple I can definatly tell things aren't always perfect for them. As with any couple.
I think marriage must be hard enough when you marry God's choice for your life, but getting ahead of Him and out of His will and marrying must be next to impossible.
"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thine ways awknoledge him and he shall direct thy paths."
~Miss Abby
Proverbs 31:30

 

Bad, amateur analogy. When you want a salad do you head out to the backyard and begin grazing on grass and weeds? Or when your in the mood for something meaty do you lie in wait concealed by bushes to stalk your neighbor's heard of cattle in hopes of picking off a straggler to eat raw?
Come on, you can surely do better than that.

 

I've already covered why this is a bad analogy. Behaviors among living creatures will always bear similarities as we must perform certain actions to stay alive (breathing, eating, etc..)

However our culture creates diferences in some. My cat cleans his anus by licking it. We humans use toilet paper. The point I was making was that of all the behaviors that we have modified by cultural innovation, sex is the one that remains true to its fundamental precepts. WHen a man and woman engage in sexual intercourse, they are two people performing their behaviors in the manner that is common in mammalians. Sexual intercourse is base when compared to the standards of other behaviors of interpersonal association that are mores in our culture. The way you behave in sex with your partner is much more "uncivilized" when viewed respectfully against behaviors associated with other relationships. In sex we relegate our behaviour to instinct and stimulus and in doing so, behave less like normal humans and more like animals. Honestly when you are hungy do you bark and pant waiting for your significant other to give you something to eat? But when you are engaging in sexual intercourse I'll take a guess and say that you are probably exhibiting some behaviors that are normally ascribed to our mamalian friends that you wouldn't exhibit in any other situation. But it makes for great sex. And if your sex isn't that way then you are probably trying to modify and "civilize" it according to some schema that you've cooked up. And researchers in human sexuality both secular and Christian alike usually agree that sex with hang-ups is usually lousy sex.

 

*sigh* - God's moral will is pretty darn inclusive

I could marry you Abby - and it would still be within the will of God

I could marry some other Christian girl and it would still be within the will of God

You are arguing for a pre-selected mate - where everyone has a matching ticket

I believe that God does have a moral will constantly in play but unlike His Sovereign will it can be denied

You are taking it a step further and suggesting God has an individual will for all of us - and every step of our lives.

There is where we part ways - I believe that like a good Father - God has planned out various parts of our lives down to the minutest detail - but that like the Good Father He is - He desires that we grow - and how can we grow without action on our part?

Thats right God desires us to grow and do His will - not because He planned it and is more then capable of making us do it anyways - but because out of love and gratitude we desire to be more like Him and choose to do things that would make us more like Him

Im not saying God doesnt arrange marriages - He does - I just believe that since He gave us outlines to pick a wife - that He would expect us to do it

 

Hang in there, Abby. I know for certain after a number of years of experience that God is not only interested in every detail of our lives, but that He will guide us step by step in everything if we ask and are willing to follow.
God allows a lot, but His best for you and me and each one here is much more specific! You're on the right track, little sister!

 

Abbey has a firm belief that God has someone out there, hand selected for her. No one is questioning her faith as it is her perogative to believe this way. I do believe that our faith should be tempered by common sense and on issues that we apply to ourselves in faith we should not blanket the rest of humanity with those same beliefs. Sularis, as I does not believe in the fatalism of one man for every woman and vice versa. As I originally pointed out this is statistically impossible due to populational disparities both globally, culturally, and within the body of Christ. I believe that in any situation that God can and will unite you with the best possible candidate. As I said your faith is not in question but the belief that you hold to is philosophically bankrupt even by theological standards. Here's why.
If one subscribes to the (I'll call it individual mate theory IMT) then by resoning it would seem that if a person doesn't marry the "one" that God has for then they are, in effect sinning by disobedience. But if you marry a Christian who loves the Lord even if they are not the elusive "one" by bilical standards you are still within the will of God and not sinning. What you end up with is a circular arguement. Also how do you account for a person who dies young, before they marry as in the previous example I gave in another post? The person who was the "One" for that individual has been removed and so now what - is the survivor now called to a life of "singles ministry"? And if they marry another by your standards then they are sinning in that they are taking a person in marriage who is not the one God originally intended for them (that person is dead) and depriving another of their "perfect match". The ridiculousness of this reasoning is self evident and while it is ok for an indivuidual to adhere to, it is foundationless when viewed as a doctornal mandate for all Christians.

 

I have come to understand that nothing -- not 'common sense', not human logic, not anything -- trumps faith in God. That God has someone special for Abby is sure.

Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding,
Acknowledge Him in all your ways
And He will direct your paths.
Prov. 3:5-6

Unless the Lord builds the house,
its builders labor in vain.
Psalm 127:1a

Even at her young age, Abby knows what she is doing and Whom she is trusting with every aspect of her life. The Lord is preparing her for exactly what He has planned for her to do -- and that includes whom she will marry, the man who will complete her.

 

Trumps is your word. I believe that I used the word temper. Yes the Lord will direct your paths, but he will not always drag you along and plop you in a particular situation. God expects effort on our part as well. Common sense and logic in my opinion serve to reinforce my faith in God because in the 28 years I have been a Christian I've observed that most everything God does makes sense AND is logical. If something seems illogical then it is usually our perspective that is in err. I knew a woman once who honestly had unnerving faith that God was going to give her a million dollars. To this day she hasn't got it. Of course God can give it to her if he so chooses but based upon evidence gleaned from Gods word I would say that her "faith" is based upon a selfish desire rather than for edification of the Lord's kingdom. What i am saying is that I honestly believe that Abbey has her heart in the right place and God will probably bless her for it. But the whole idea of God having a particular set of cirtcumstances hatched up and ready to dop in your lap often leads to apathy on the part of Christians who seek to "wait on the Lord" and then get discouraged when things don't happen. Waiting on the Lord in my experience often means waiting on insight for you to take steps that are "ordered of God". I honestly believe that God has a really good job (if not one then another, probably several candidates) waiting for me when I graduate with my master's in three months. But if I wait for the circumstances to be dropped in my lap then likely the "perfect job" that God has for me will elude me due to my apathy. My point is that the perdestined outlook on life more often than not will lead to apathy and deprive us of recieving Gods blessings. Even if you don't believe that God does not have a perfect match for you it will not exclude you from recieving his blessing in that area if in fact he does.

 

Bad, amateur analogy. When you want a salad do you head out to the backyard and begin grazing on grass and weeds? Or when your in the mood for something meaty do you lie in wait concealed by bushes to stalk your neighbor's heard of cattle in hopes of picking off a straggler to eat raw?
Come on, you can surely do better than that. </font>[/QUOTE]XW,

You make no sense. You offer no agruement other than "No, you are wrong". I am disappointed.

 

I've already covered why this is a bad analogy.</font>[/QUOTE]No you haven't.

Not all humans use toilet paper. Have you ever traveled to a third world country or to Japan? They may consider using toilet paper "base" behavior.

God intended the purpose of sex to be different between man and animals. Animals engage in sex to procreate. God intended for a husband and wife to engage is sex as a physical manifestation of their spiritual connection. Read Genesis 2:22-25
22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
23 The man said,

"This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called 'woman, '
for she was taken out of man."

24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
25 The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.

As Christians were are to have sexual relations relations only with our spouse. We don't have sexual relations with other people so it makes no sense to compare this unique relationship with types of relationships. Why is sex between husband and wife uncivilized?

Are to assume that you believe that there is a "proper way" to engage in sex that doesn't debase us?

By your quote here are we to assume you are not married? If true then you are basing a lot of your positions on assumptions.

Society's hang up is not about HOW we engage but with WHO we engage sex with. There has been a shift in the past 50 years where engaging in sex with someone who is not your spouse (the Bible calls this fornication) has gone from a "shameful" act that is kept secret to now where it is condoned and lauded and something "great and wonderful".

 

Trumps is your word. I believe that I used the word temper. Yes the Lord will direct your paths, but he will not always drag you along and plop you in a particular situation. God expects effort on our part as well. Common sense and logic in my opinion serve to reinforce my faith in God because in the 28 years I have been a Christian I've observed that most everything God does makes sense AND is logical. If something seems illogical then it is usually our perspective that is in err. I knew a woman once who honestly had unnerving faith that God was going to give her a million dollars. To this day she hasn't got it. Of course God can give it to her if he so chooses but based upon evidence gleaned from Gods word I would say that her "faith" is based upon a selfish desire rather than for edification of the Lord's kingdom. What i am saying is that I honestly believe that Abbey has her heart in the right place and God will probably bless her for it. But the whole idea of God having a particular set of cirtcumstances hatched up and ready to dop in your lap often leads to apathy on the part of Christians who seek to "wait on the Lord" and then get discouraged when things don't happen. Waiting on the Lord in my experience often means waiting on insight for you to take steps that are "ordered of God". I honestly believe that God has a really good job (if not one then another, probably several candidates) waiting for me when I graduate with my master's in three months. But if I wait for the circumstances to be dropped in my lap then likely the "perfect job" that God has for me will elude me due to my apathy. My point is that the perdestined outlook on life more often than not will lead to apathy and deprive us of recieving Gods blessings. Even if you don't believe that God does not have a perfect match for you it will not exclude you from recieving his blessing in that area if in fact he does. </font>[/QUOTE]Wow. I totally agree with you on this one Xingyi Warrior. What you have described, I call "pie in the sky" Christianity. Some Christians believe that God has our lives already planned out and all we have to do is go along for the ride. I disagree with that philosophy.