covenantal or dispensational

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Jul 30, 2012.

  1. Iconoclast

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    http://postmillennialism.com/2012/07/covenant-and-redemption/
    From Ken Gentry.....you can open this link for the whole article

    found this on facebook;
     
    #1 Iconoclast, Jul 30, 2012
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  2. kyredneck

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  3. Iconoclast

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    I think that a sincere dispensationalist has spent so much time learning that system that it is difficult to take a fresh look at how they are viewing the texts.:thumbs::wavey:
     
  4. OldRegular

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    Well, kyredneck, Scripture does tell us: 2 Timothy 2:15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Can you fault the dispensationalists because they take an extreme view of the above teaching and "splinter" the truth? Six or Seven times at least!
     
  5. Iconoclast

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    It is this ...WRONGLY dividing up of the scripture that confuses many. They have about 9 different gospels, 14 different kinds of saints....

    the gospel
    the gospel of the kingdom
    the everlasting gospel the gospel to the jew
    the gospel to the gentile
    the gospel of the 144000
    the gospel of heaven........the millenial gospel

    Ot saints, nt saints, tribulation saints, millenial saints,pre abrahamic saints,etc
     
    #5 Iconoclast, Jul 30, 2012
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  6. OldRegular

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    And 5 or 6 different resurrections!
     
  7. kyredneck

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    ....and two 'second comings'.
     
    #7 kyredneck, Jul 30, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 30, 2012
  8. AresMan

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    Both complete with their own set of trumpets, and both of which Jesus says that He will "come as a thief."
     
  9. Greektim

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    Dont forget two peoples of God...

    w/ some two new covenants...

    this could go on for a while :D
     
  10. preachinjesus

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    There are significant difficulties in the classical dispensational theological views. One simply cannot reasonably read Scripture and do theology coherently while being a classical Dispensationalist.

    However...the progressive dispensational theology has corrected much of these problems. It offers a more coherent theological schema for interpretation.
     
  11. 12strings

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    You must not have gotten the memo: This is the "bash Dispys" thread.
     
  12. preachinjesus

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    Well, I don't get any of the memos around here...must not be on the email list. :laugh:

    Anyhoo...I'll defend progressive dispensationalism against any detractor.
     
  13. OldRegular

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    Although I disagree with any premillennial view I have stated on numerous occasions that progressive dispensationalism is a welcome move away from classic dispensationalism. From what I have read it moves away from the classic view of the Church and the two peoples of God and moves closer to the covenant premillennial doctrine.
     
  14. AresMan

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    Correct. It discards the eternal dualism of classic dispensationalism and makes the distinction between Israel and the church more cosmetic and chronological.
    Of course, it still has the rapture -> seven-year tribulation -> millenium scheme, but for someone like I who is doomed to deal with Mid-Acts dispensationalism (hyperdispensationalism) forever, it is a breathe of fresh air.
     
  15. preachinjesus

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    Just as a note, and I'm sure we'll get to this, I hold a historical premillennial view of eschatology. Though there is a rapture which takes place, it is prior to the 1,000 year reign. I find a literal 7 year tribulation dubious and not supported Scripturally. Of course, I imagine we'll get to this. :)
     
  16. HeirofSalvation

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    I can accept that there is some weird form of so-called "dispensationalism" that has all sorts of strange ideas...o.k. I just think that probably few people are a party to such a thing....NUMEROUS RESURECTIONS?????........I know this much...I have used the much despised "Scofield Bible" all my life, and I never got the idea that there was such a thing....Maybe there is some minor group of individuals who adhere to some weird notions....but it simply isn't the average "dispy" who thinks this way...not at all. I haven't seen it, and it isn't widely preached. My beloved "Scofield" never impressed upon me the idea that there were "Numerous" ressurections....or that ANYONE was ever saved by anything other than grace...and that through faith... Read Habbakukh...read ALL of the prophets...God has ALWAYS had a plan of saving the gentiles...In the O.T.....they would become a party to the promises of Israel...see (Jesus in the temple and his anger at those who denied the idea that his house should be a "House of prayer" for ALL Nations.... Why did he throw out the money changers? Why was he so angry that the gospel record...specifically...overthrowing those benches which sold "doves"...Wasn't Jesus in the direct line of the harlot Rahab, and the woman Ruth??? Any reader of the Scofield knows this...Jesus had so much gentile blood in his body it was ridiculous...I am beginning to think this group of "dispy-haters" simply no longer are aware of the beauty of this...Jesus was a "pure-bred" Jew like we are all "pure-bred" Laosians....read the Bible for God's sake...God NEVER abandoned the countless millions in non-Jewish nations in the OT...NEVER...he speaks of those who "honour his sabbath" and those who are not his people who bring his sacrifices....God loved and provided a way of Salvation for OT non-Jews as much as he did so for National Jews....What O.T. passage was Jesus refering to when he quoted Isaiah about "My house shall be called a house of prayer for ALL nations"? READ IT!!! My apparently Satanic "Scofield" Bible brought me DIRECTLY to the place where God has CLEARLY made a provision for Old Testament (non-JEWISH) people to be a party to the promise of redemption for all who believe in faith....God included the Gentiles in the New Testament....I am simpy getting the idea that the "dispy-haters" are unaware of the fact that the OT clearly states that the non-Jew might be a party to the promise of redemption as well.
     
  17. Greektim

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    So you don't believe in a resurrection at the rapture, then at the 2nd coming, then at the end of the millennial kingdom??? That would be the idea of numerous resurrections.
     
  18. Van

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    Thanks PreachinJesus, you nailed it.
     
  19. Van

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    Just a couple of notes, I think the Bible speaks of two resurrections, the resurrection to life and the resurrection to judgment. As far as two second comings, some find the rapture as the first resurrection where we meet Jesus in the air, and then later -much debate the time span - Jesus returns and sets His foot down on the mountain. This all may be mistaken, since it is built on tea leaves, but I think Amillennialism suffers from the same speculation laden foundation.
     
  20. OldRegular

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    Actually according to the preeminent theologian of classical dispensationalism, John Walvoord, there are seven resurrections.

    John F. Walvoord’s Interpretation of Revelation 20:4-6.

    The following view is by John F. Walvoord, a contemporary dispensational theologian, and former president of the Dallas Theological Seminary. The information is excerpted from Major Bible Prophecies, page 376ff.

    Emphasis is mine!

    The Origin of the First Resurrection

    The term “the first resurrection” is found in Revelation 20:5-6: The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.[/b][/color][/i]

    Theologians who attempt to put all the resurrections together into one grand resurrection at the end of the present age find in the expression “the first resurrection” sufficient proof that there is no previous resurrection. It does not take much investigation of Scripture, however, to find that this is a false deduction. Several resurrections precede that which is called “the first resurrection.” This becomes evident when the order of the various resurrections is laid out.


    The Order of Resurrections

    Though there are numerous restorations to life in both the Old and New Testaments, resurrection in the sense of being given a resurrection body that will last forever did not occur until Jesus Christ was raised from the dead. His resurrection is the first resurrection [Matthew 28:1 -7; Mark 16:1-11; Luke 24:1-12; John 20:1-18].

    The second resurrection is recorded in Matthew 27:50-53. The Scriptures declare that when the earthquake occurred at the time of Christ’s resurrection, tombs were broken open and bodies of holy people who had died were raised to life. Later, after Christ was raised from the dead, a number of these individuals were seen in Jerusalem. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people [vv 51-53]. The sequence of events seems to be that at the time of the earthquake when Christ died the tombs were broken open - that is, unsealed. The resurrection and the appearance of the people who were raised from the tombs, however, did not occur until after Jesus’ resurrection.

    The third resurrection will occur in connection with the rapture of the church [1 Thessalonians. 4:13-18; cf. 1 Corinthians 15:50-53]. At the Rapture the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air [1 Thess. 4:16-17]. This resurrection apparently refers to everyone who is baptized into the body of Christ from the Day of Pentecost until the Rapture. Old Testament saints seem to be resurrected at a later time.

    The fourth resurrection is prophesied in Revelation 11b. Two witnesses who will be killed for their testimony will be left lying in the streets of Jerusalem and will be raised from the dead on the third day [v. 8]. After the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on” [vv, 11-12].

    The fifth resurrection is described in Revelation 20:4-6. As the context indicates, this resurrection has to do with the martyred dead of the Great Tribulation. John wrote, And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years [v. 4]. If the resurrection at the Rapture covers all of the saints of the present age since Pentecost, this resurrection relates to the saints who will die in the period between the Rapture and the Second Coming. This will include the martyred dead that are mentioned here specifically. It is amazing how scholars have ignored the plain statement of this passage and tried to make it a general resurrection of all the dead or even make it a reference to the new birth of the believer at the time of his faith in Christ.

    The Scriptures here show plainly that this resurrection refers to a particular class of people who will be raised in connection with the Second Coming of Christ.

    The sixth resurrection will be that of the Old Testament saints: Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. [Daniel 12:2]. Though the fact that all people who die will be raised is commonly assumed in the Old Testament, there are relatively few references that speak specifically of their resurrection. This is one of the major passages.

    A second major prediction of this resurrection is found in Isaiah 26:19: But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the clew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.

    A third major reference is found in Ezekiel 37 in connection with the restoration of the children of Israel. Though the figure is largely that of the restoration of the nation of Israel, bodily resurrection is also mentioned in verses 13-14: Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.

    According to Daniel 12:1, this resurrection will come at the close of the tribulation period described in Daniel 11:36-45: There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered. The resurrection is mentioned specifically in the verse that follows. Though the chronological arrangement of this passage in relation to the resurrection of the Tribulation dead is not given in Scripture, it is probable that this will follow the resurrection of the Tribulation dead, and the Old Testament saints, accordingly, will be in the sixth and final resurrection of the righteous.

    The last resurrection has to do with the judgment of the Great White Throne as recorded in Revelation 20:11-15. In this resurrection all the wicked dead, who up to this time have been in Hades, will be resurrected and cast into the lake of fire.

    The order of these seven resurrections should make plain that the resurrection of Revelation 20:5-6 is not first in the sense of being before all previous resurrections. If that is not the meaning, what does the term “the first resurrection” mean?


    The Nature of the First Resurrection

    As the context indicates, the resurrection of the Tribulation dead will follow the Tribulation but precede the millennial kingdom. In Revelation 20:7-10 the millennial kingdom follows the resurrection of the Tribulation dead. During this time Satan will be bound [vv. 1-3]. At the end of the thousand years Satan will be let loose and will cause a rebellion against God. Then he will be judged and cast into the lake of burning sulfur [v. 10]. Accordingly, the point of the term “the first resurrection” is that it is first, not in the sense of being number one or prior to all resurrections, but in the sense that it occurs before the final resurrection, the resurrection of the wicked. In other words, the Tribulation dead will be raised before the millennial kingdom and before the resurrection of the wicked at the Great White Throne judgment. To use the term “first resurrection” to refer to the new birth, as amillenarians do in evading the teaching of this passage on the millennial kingdom, or to refer to it as the Rapture, as posttribulationists do, based on the idea that there could not be a resurrection before this, are both inadequate explanations of the expression. The doctrine of resurrection falls into place when one recognizes that that there is a series of resurrections in Scripture, beginning with the resurrection of Christ and ending with the resurrection of the wicked. In this series the resurrection of the martyred dead of the Great Tribulation is resurrection number five and is probably followed by the resurrection of the Old Testament saints. The resurrection of the wicked is the last resurrection.
     

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