Creation Vs Evolution As World Views

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by john6:63, Mar 25, 2004.

  1. john6:63

    john6:63
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    The following in a quote from UTEOTW and CalvinG

    That’s right UTEOTW, the key word is science, real science. Real science is able to observe and repeat.

    The canard that evolution is science and creation is religious is obviously false, since it is impossible for scientists actually to observe or repeat unique events in the past. Evolution is based upon the premise of naturalism not actual science.

    The following example shows that the world-views of both creation and evolution are basically philosophical or, better, religious.

    Creation
    Self-existing external Creator
    Cosmos created by divine fiat
    Basic systems completed in the past by supernatural processes
    Net changes in created systems ‘downward’ toward disorganization

    Evolution
    Self-originating or self-existing cosmos
    Cosmos organized by itself.
    All systems developed by still-continuing natural processes
    Net changes in evolving systems ‘upward’ toward higher organizations.
     
  2. john6:63

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    Lets examine the different world Religions that are based on the two world-views of Creation and Evolution.

    Creation
    Bible-believing Biblical Creation
    Orthodox Judaism
    Orthodox Islam

    Note: Only Biblical Christianity acknowledges that the Creator must also become the Redeemer & Savior. Islam and Judaism relies on Human works in addition to faith in the Creator.

    Evolution
    Non-Biblical Christianity (Liberalism, esoteric cults, etc)
    Non-Orthodox Judaism
    Non-Orthodox Islam
    Ancient Pagan Religions (Babylon, Greece, Rome, Egypt, etc)

    Note: The Greeks believed that the many gods they worshipped evolved and thus they themselves would eventual evolve into gods. This practice is what prompted Paul in writing to Timothy to end his letter to him the way he did. See 1 Timothy 6:20-21.

    Hinduism
    Confucianism
    Buddhism
    Taoism
    Shintoism
    Animism
    Humanism
    Atheism
     
  3. CalvinG

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    John,

    The key to science is that the theory can be falsified by reference to events in the natural world, not that events can be repeated by science or presently observed under laboratory conditions.

    You have probably seen modern-day selective breeding. I wager this is something with which you are familiar. It is how we get all of our non-natural breeds of animals, such as certain breeds of dogs and cats. These animals are not a different species as they can still interbreed with their natural relatives to form viable offspring. Some might consider them a sub-species. This you are able to see. And the animals change from their natural sort by means of selection by the breeder. So you know that animals can change based on selection. Evolution merely says that natural forces can act on living things in the same manner as the breeder, breeding some and not breeding others, based on which natural organisms are most fit for conditions.

    Here is something else: the scientific theory of evolution, once modern genetics is understood, actually makes falsifiable predictions regarding the genetic codes of organisms which share a common ancestor. Both UTEOTW and I have shared some of these with those who post here.

    Make no mistake: evolution is science. Because the theory predicts that certain things will be present in the natural world. In the DNA of organisms. And the theory can be held still a valid theory or falsified based on whether or not its predictions re: DNA are valid.

    Thus far, the theory that man shares a common ancestor with African primates has not been falsified by reference to observations of the natural world.

    John, I will address issues of philosophy or value-judgements based on evolution if you choose in another thread. Because the science itself does not make value judgements. But I will find it interesting if your refusal to believe the best explanation of certain scientific data is shared by Islamic terrorists.
     
  4. CalvinG

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    Ahh...you did start another thread. I apologize for not noticing.

    It saddens me that you choose to define a religion as orthodox or non-orthodox based on whether it accepts your literal interpretation of Genesis. And on on the basis of whether its adherents love God, accept and obey God's commands to the extent they are able, rely on Jesus' sacrifice for salvation, and deal in a loving way with brothers in Christ with whom they disagree.

    To say that the best evidence is that God created by means of evolution is not to say that God did not create everything. It is not to say that God is not responsible for the existence of mankind. Or do you think that God is creator only if God created the world in some sort of speaking-and-it-was-instantly-so manner?
     
  5. UTEOTW

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    Let's look at those statemeents attributed to evolution.

    "Self-originating or self-existing cosmos"

    Nothing in the theory of evolution about the cosmos. Sorry.

    "Cosmos organized by itself."

    Still nothing about the cosmos in evolution.

    "All systems developed by still-continuing natural processes"

    That's a good one. Good thing that we can observe these processes in action. For instance, we have observed new metabolic pathways, you know those things DIers claim are irreducibly complex, evolve.

    "Net changes in evolving systems ‘upward’ toward higher organizations"

    I do not really think there is a sense up "upward" in evolution. Somethings are better adapted for a given environment than others. It is true that increasing complexity has been one way to survive. But there are also some comparatively simple organisms out there that do an outstanding job in their niche.

    I'll have to strongly disagree that ANY religions are "based on the ... world-views of ... Evolution." Some of these may not deny the fact of evolution. And some may have mythology which can be compared to evolution in a very, very broad and genral sense. But none are BASED on evolution.

    The fact is that evolution is both observable and falsifiable and that you have no evidnece to falsify it.
     
  6. john6:63

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    Our Creator Jesus Christ in Matthew 7:18 stated that a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit and neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

    The following is a list of harmful philosophies and evil practices of evolution that will shed some light on the evolution “TREE” which is certainly corrupt for its “FRUIT” has been uniformly evil. The leading advocates of these philosophies have in every case based their pseudoscientific rationale on evolutionism.

    First lets examine the ‘FRUITS’ of evolution.

    Harmful philosophies:
    Communism, Nazism, Racism, Imperialism, Atheism, Humanism, Occultism, Social Darwinism, Scientism, etc…

    Evil practices:
    Abortion, drug culture, Promiscuity, Pornography, Genocide, Euthanasia, Chauvism, New-Agism, Bestiality, Homosexuality, Satanism, Witchcraft, etc…

    Now lets examine the ‘FRUITS’ of creationists.

    Wholesome Human Social Relations:
    1. Monogamous Marriage established by God with the first literal human couple (Gen. 2:21-25 & Matt. 19:46).
    2. Dominion mandated established human stewardship of man under God over the physical and animal creation, viewing every honorable occupation as a service to God (Gen. 1:26-28, Col. 3:23).
    3. Human government ordained to maintain order in society as a service to the Creator (Gen. 9:1-7; Rom. 13:1-7).

    True Science:
    1. Founding fathers of modern science were creationists ‘thinking God’s thoughts after Him’. Newton, Kepler, Boyle, etc.
    2. Uses scientific methods based on premise of orderly creation, capable of being understood and described rationally, because designed by an intelligent Creator.

    True education:
    1. Transmitting truth learned via obedience to dominion mandated from one generation to another, thereby ‘subduing’ the earth.
    2. Centered and controlled in the home and family, stressing, first of all obedience to God and His Word (Gen. 18:18, 19; Eph. 28:19, 20).
    3. Transmission of truth through God’s people (Matt. 28:19, 20; 1 Tim 3:16).

    True Americanism:
    1. Founding fathers of American system, though not all Bible-believing, were for the most part creationists.
    2. The Declaration of Independence assumes American freedom required by obedience to our Creator (All men CREATED equal).
    3. The Background of the US Constitution is based on English common law, which was derived mainly from scripture and efforts of many Bible-believing founding fathers of this country.

    True Christianity:
    1. Christology – Christ as Creator (Hohn 1:3; Col. 1:16; etc.).
    2. Gospel founded “everlastingly” on God, first as CREATOR, then as incarnate saving the word (Rev. 14:6,7).
    3. Saving faith centered first of all on God’s work as CREATOR (Hebrews 10:38 – 11:3).
    4. Sound evangelism, see Johns Gospel
    5. Sound Missionary efforts, see Paul’s examples in Acts.
    6. Fellowship (Eph 3:8-12).
    7. Christian Life (Col. 3:10; 2 Cor. 5:17).
    8. Christian home and family (Matt. 19:3-6).
    9. Biblical evelation and Inerrancy (Psalm 119:89,90; Hebrews 1:1-1,2).
    10. Redemption (1 Peter 1:18-21; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2)
     
  7. john6:63

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    What part of And God said don’t you understand in Genesis?

    What part of Genesis 2:1-3 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day Godended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. don’t you understand?

    Hence the keywords: MADE, CREATED, FINISHED, ALL HIS WORK…How much simpler could God had explained it? God is DONE creating, He’s FINISHED, ALL THE HOST OF THEM…

    Boy, my 6 year old nephew can even comprehend that.

    God isn’t the author of confusion! But man is WILLINGLY IGNORANT of God’s Word!
     
  8. john6:63

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    So John 6:63, what’s wrong with an allegory view of Genesis?

    Great Question John, some people here will say, "The book of Genesis is a myth and legend and a fairy tale, allegory and tradition, and it doesn't really speak about real facts to the real world."

    In Fact John it does, for the Word of God is to be taken seriously when it speaks to the real world on any and every subject. If we avoid dealing with what the Bible says about the creation of the material universe, then there is a tendency for our religion to be disconnected from the real world. There's a tendency to put Scripture in to some mystical category, to put Christianity in to some stained-glass closet.

    You start out with the book of Genesis, tampering with the literal nature of that text and you have created a mystical approach to Scripture at the very launch point. You can't pick up the book of Genesis, take chapter 1 and say this is a fairy story, this is not real history, this is not reality, this does not reflect a real understanding of the real world, without severe implications to the rest of the message of Scripture. The doctrine of creation as identified in the book of Genesis is foundational; it is where God starts His story. And you can't change the beginning without impacting the rest of the story and the ending. In the Bible God speaks and He speaks in Genesis 1:1 and says He created the heavens and the earth. He is the one who spoke in Genesis 1:1 and who speaks right through Scripture till its very end.

    When you tamper with Genesis 1 you are tampering with the Word of the living God and you are taking the divine account of real creation and you're saying...It is not accurate, it is not legitimate, it is not the truth. That is a serious assault and it loosens up the Scripture from reality and divorces religion, the true religion, from reality.

    So evolution would love to ungod God, it would love to strip Scripture of its veracity. It wants to reject God as lawgiver, judge, Savior. It wants to destroy the dignity of man as created in the image of God.
     
  9. john6:63

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    PETA and Evolution

    According to evolution man is quantitatively better than the animals, that is, he has some features that animals don't have, but he's not better. He has a bigger brain, but, he was not created in God's image. Therefore it is ethically wrong to violate the rights of other animals who are our literal brothers, evolutionarily speaking. [​IMG] [​IMG]

    PETA and their national director, Ingrid Newkirk will agree she stated
    No difference. All higher forms of life, a rat being a higher form of life in her view, are to be considered equal.

    There’s even an organization called The Church of Euthanasia, which believes that animal rights are superior to human rights. A representative from that organization, told a national TV audience,
    Even some animal rights groups maintain that eating meat is murder. Man is the tyrant species. Killing cows is murder. And there was one who said that killing chickens is equal to the holocaust, perpetrated by the Nazis on the Jews.

    This kind of idiocy comes because these people really do believe that man is simply the end of an evolutionary series of chance occurrences that has no purpose and has no destiny and is not made in the image of God. He is not bearing any dignity beyond any other along the line in that evolutionary process.

    If evolution is true, you can't argue with them. We're just animals. We have just evolved. All of these animal rights advocates, who have expressed themselves publicly on the subject are evolutionists. According to evolution it's merely the luck of the draw that man has evolved the big brain had certain mutations not happened in our ancestors and instead happened in the ancestors of the chimpanzees we might be where they are, in the zoo, and they might be where we are. (Planet of the Apes ring a bell?) Animal rights advocates will state
    If man is only a animal, an accident of nature, a collection of chance mutations, then where is his meaning? Where is his dignity? Where is his absolute value? What is his purpose? Obviously he has none.

    And YOU believe this TRASH SCIENCE? :rolleyes:
     
  10. UTEOTW

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    You are trying so hard to condemn evolution through slander rather than looking at the facts. Evolution has no bearing pn "Communism, Nazism, Racism, Imperialism, Atheism, Humanism, Occultism, Social Darwinism, Scientism, etc…Abortion, drug culture, Promiscuity, Pornography, Genocide, Euthanasia, Chauvism, New-Agism, Bestiality, Homosexuality, Satanism, Witchcraft, etc… "

    You cannot show me anywhere in a biology textbook where they promote Satanism or beastiality or racism or any of this other junk. Evolution offers nothing of the sort. If someone tries to use TOE to support their own vileness, that is their problem. Their is no "philosophy" of evolution and I doubt that you can show me where any of these things can be tied directly to evolution and not someone's twisting of the science.

    You turn to slander when you cannot refute the facts.
     
  11. UTEOTW

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    Let's put this differently. Plenty of people through the ages have used the Bible as justification for doing what they wanted to do. People could quote the Bible to support slavery, to slaughter Jews, to blow up nightclubs, to kill doctors, and to do all such matter of vile things. They still do it today. But I do not see any of us abandoning Christianity because some people twisted it to fit their purposes. Same thing here. Evolution has nothing to say about all these things you are trying to tie it to. It merely seeks to explain the evidence we see. These people who twist their theory to justify what they want to do are no better than those who twisted the Bible and then went and burned witches at the stake. Trying to use people's misuse of the theory to slander it does nothing about the facts in play.
     
  12. john6:63

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    Well UTEOTW, let’s look at HISTORY shall we?

    What Hitler saw in the evolutionary theory, was the scientific justification, (just the same as social Darwinists of the nineteenth century did for their terrible abuses, which was followed by Joseph Stalin ) For his attempt to preserve the pure race.

    There's no question that evolution was behind all Nazi thought from beginning to the end. Evolution is the survival of...the fittest. Hitler was just playing out the evolutionary role. He was the fittest and so he massacred everybody else under the evolutionary thesis that he was perpetuating the strongest and he was aiding in the development of the super race. That was all born out of evolutionary theory. In the biological theory of Darwin, Hitler found his most powerful weapon against traditional, against religious and Christian values. He singled out the idea of biological evolution as the greatest weapon he had against traditional religion and he repeatedly condemned Christianity for its opposition to evolution.

    Hitler hated Christianity. In fact he said:
    And Hitler’s Mein Kampf (My Struggle), was basically Hitler's evolutionary theory working its way out politically and was the justification for the destruction of the masses who threatened the continued evolution of the super race. In Mein Kampf Hitler wrote,
    And so he destroyed the Jews, he destroyed the blacks, he destroyed the Gypsies and he was aiding natural selection and fulfilling the evolutionary biological dream.

    The head of the Nazi Labor Front said that Hitler's massacres expressed
    Julian Huxley, a biologist and evolutionist wrote Essays of a Humanist in 1964, said,
    Julian’s right. It is the single, greatest, satanic lie the world has ever known, because it eliminates the need for a Creator. People can avoid God all together, particularly the biblical God.
     
  13. john6:63

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  14. john6:63

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    I agree, BUT look at it in this light

    Jesus Himself addressed the issue of "Christians," performing evil deeds in a rather chilling prophecy in Matt 7:22-23:
    So, Jesus says MANY will think they are His followers, but will be REJECTED at their judgment!

    If you examine the atrocities perpetrated by atheists who believed in EVOLUTION, you find that they have killed more people in the last century than all of the crimes of 2000 years of "church" history combined. Joseph Stalin killed 20 million Soviet citizens between 1929 and 1939 because they were not politically correct. Mao Tse-tung killed 34 to 62 million Chinese during the Chinese civil war of the 1930s and 1940s. Pol Pot the leader of the Marxist regime in Cambodia, Kampuchea, in the 1970's killed 1.7 million of his own people.

    The FRUITS of EVOLUTION!
     
  15. john6:63

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    Show me in SCRIPTURE where God uses evolution to create, please.

    Oh…be careful not to TWIST SCRIPTURE!

    I’ll wait patiently for your answer.

    The TRUTH hurts huh? I can slander evolution and what you believe and expose it FRUITS all day.

    But YOU OTHO, can’t slander what I believe b/c it’s from the LIVING GOD and HIS WORD.

    The only ammo you have is science falsely so called, which neither has ever been observed nor repeated.

    As I said before, there’s more to evolution than biology, people need to understand how the thoeories of evolution governs the way they think, instead of the Word of God. Example, Homosexual marriages!
     
  16. UTEOTW

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    "What Hitler saw in the evolutionary theory, was the scientific justification, (just the same as social Darwinists of the nineteenth century did for their terrible abuses, which was followed by Joseph Stalin ) For his attempt to preserve the pure race. "

    Oh boy, we both will be quoting Hitler now. Mine is all pulled from Mein Kampf.

    "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

    The goal government is to "finally to put an end to the constant and continuous original sin of racial poisoning, and to give the Almighty Creator beings such as He Himself created."

    "It is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator if His most gifted beings by the hundreds and hundreds of thousands are allowed to degenerate in the present proletarian morass, while Hottentots and Zulu Kaffirs are trained for intellectual professions."

    "Human culture and civilization on this continent are inseparably bound up with the presence of the Aryan. If he dies out or declines, the dark veils of an age without culture will again descend on this globe. The undermining of the existence of human culture by the destruction of its bearer seems in the eyes of a folkish philosophy the most execrable crime. Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent Creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise."

    "Historical experience offers countless proofs of this. It shows with terrifying clarity that in every mingling of Aryan blood with that of lower peoples the result was the end of the cultured people. North America, whose population consists in by far the largest part of Germanic elements who mixed but little with the lower colored peoples, shows a different humanity and culture from Central and South America, where the predominantly Latin immigrants often mixed with the aborigines on a large scale. By this one example, we can clearly and distinctly recognize the effect of racial mixture. The Germanic inhabitant of the American continent, who has remained racially pure and unmixed, rose to be master of the continent; he will remain the master as long as he does not fall a victim to defilement of the blood. The result of all racial crossing is therefore in brief always the following: To bring about such a development is, then, nothing else but to sin against the will of the Eternal Creator."

    "Then, from the child's story-book to the last newspaper in the country, and every theatre and cinema, every pillar where placards are posted and every free space on the hoardings should be utilized in the service of this one great mission, until the faint-hearted cry, "Lord, deliver us," which our patriotic associations send up to Heaven to-day would be transformed into an ardent prayer: 'Almighty God, bless our arms when the hour comes. ' "

    Does not sound like he was acting out of evolutionary beliefs from this. But I'm not going to let Hitler make me give up Christianity.
     
  17. UTEOTW

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    You give me AIG's opinion of evolution as a philosophy and expect me to be convinced that there is a connect?

    Go through and quote me biology textbooks and peer reviewed papers. Otherwise you are just giving me connections that do not exist and people who have twisted something because they see an opportunity to do what they wished. All your Marxist and Communists killers did what they did because they were bad people not because of evolution.

    "The only ammo you have is science falsely so called, which neither has ever been observed nor repeated."

    You have not yet been able to show, at all, that this is false science. I have given you plenty of observations and evidence to support evolution through the course of these threads and all you can do is deny the evidence. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink, I suppose.
     
  18. john6:63

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    And one can open the Word of God and quote scripture and scripture after scripture, but you can’t make him comprehend it. It just shows man is WILLINGLY IGNORANT.
     
  19. john6:63

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    I will repeat, Hitler used the theory of EVOLUTION as an excuse to strengthen the pure race. Only the FITTEST survive, huh?

    Again I refer you to Matthew 7:22-23, concerning those hiding behind the curtain of Christianity.

    Furthermore, the book Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc. first edition, 1953, contains definitive proof of Hitler's real views concerning Christianity (some thought he was Roman Catholic). The book was published in Britain under the title, Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944, which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.
     
  20. BobRyan

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    Well said.

    Both Atheist evolutionists and Christian Creationists would heartily agree with your observation.

    Perfect contrast and nice confession too.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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