Credibility without Accountability?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Lorelei, Feb 5, 2003.

  1. Lorelei

    Lorelei
    Expand Collapse
    <img src ="http://www.amacominc.com/~lorelei/mgsm.

    Joined:
    May 25, 2001
    Messages:
    2,045
    Likes Received:
    0
    I very seldom interact here because I find most of the discussions futile. How can you have a fruitful discussion with people who follow a leader that is accountable to no one. They will argue day after day how their leader is accountable to God, but that is not the reality.

    The fact is that the catholic religion is accountable to no one.

    They say they are in unison with the Holy Scriptures, but only they can interpret those scriptures correctly.

    They claim the Pope is infallible in doctrine, but have no other proof than the word of the Popes who make this claim.

    If you deny any of these claims you are pronounced anathema and lose what they claim is the only way to salvation. In other words, if you don't believe what they say you rot in hell.

    Catholics get so upset when we remember the crusades and the many times innocent people were burned at the stake for daring to speak out against the church. They refuse to put their church in a position of accountability and refuse to see how incidences like these damage their credibility.

    In all other areas of our lives, we deal with people based upon their credibility. Would you honestly invest money in a business that you knew robbed from people in the past? Would you vote for a president that openly killed any opponent that didn't agree with him? Would you knowingly invite a mass murderer in your home simply because he said he wasn't going to do that anymore? I don't think we would do any of these things, and why is that?

    We base our judgment upon people based upon their credibility. If a person is credible we will interact with them, but if they are not, we use caution and care when dealing with them and avoid interacting in a way that will let us become a victim to their crimes.

    What of a person whose credibility we have not been able to test yet? We may give them the benefit of the doubt and trust them implicitly, but the moment they do something contrary to that trust, they are no longer considered credible.

    It is no different with God. God made us the way we are, and it is by God's standards that we hold men accountable. God has proven Himself by fulfilling prophecy and he has made Himself evident through the creation of His universe. Although we must place our faith in Him, he doesn't expect us to follow Him blindly, nor would he expect us to do so of any man or church.

    In discussing anything with catholics it always falls back to what their church teaches and we can never prove them wrong because they hold themselves accountable to no one, not even God.

    Oh, they will insist they are indeed accountable to God, but they have no proof other than the fact that their church says so. Do you see the circular reasoning in this?

    ~Lorelei
     
  2. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/curtis.gif>

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2001
    Messages:
    20,264
    Likes Received:
    4
  3. LisaMC

    LisaMC
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2003
    Messages:
    400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here! Here! Amen to that! [​IMG] Lorilei, you said it so much better that I have ever been able to. Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Lisa
     
  4. thessalonian

    thessalonian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2003
    Messages:
    1,767
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lorelie,

    Well if it is about credibility, none of you Protestants when speaking about Cathoilcism have any as you blatantly distort it to fit you agendas and don't care if someone calls you on it. Lieing about someone elses sincerely held religious beliefs is just fine on this board.

    As for the Crusades, God is the judge of whether people were sincerely defending their homelands and families or just out for plunder. There was some of both. And there are many planks in the Protestant eye's with regard to things such as this. Ever heard of 5 points calvinism. Most Baptists have. I do not know if you are baptist. But there was a man named Servetus who was teaching things the Calvinists (baptists) didn't agree with. Mr. John Calvin gave his blessing for this man to be burned at the stake. Oh wait, his preference was to have him hanged but he didn't raise much of a fuss when the woodpile was staked and the marshmallows were brought out. There were numerous other stories of Prots persecuting Prots and Prots persecuting Catholics so don't get your head too far in the sand.

    Blessings
     
  5. Lorelei

    Lorelei
    Expand Collapse
    <img src ="http://www.amacominc.com/~lorelei/mgsm.

    Joined:
    May 25, 2001
    Messages:
    2,045
    Likes Received:
    0
    thessalonian,

    1. Calvinist does not equal Baptist.
    2. Baptist does not equal Protestant
    3. Baptists hold each man accountable for their actions. They don't merely brush it off because the person commiting the crime is their leader. People who have done so in the past were simply wrong.
    4. Baptists aren't claiming to be infallible nor are they claiming to be the sole source for scriptural interpretation.

    It's always the same old story with Catholics, they never explain their reasonings for accepting sin, they merely justify it with "well you did something wrong too." Is there some place in the Catechism that says two wrongs make a right?

    ~Lorelei
     
  6. Acts 1:8

    Acts 1:8
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2002
    Messages:
    645
    Likes Received:
    0
    Do you see the circular reasoning in this?

    ~Lorelei


    Well said Lorelei, Thats why I and many others look to God's Word, (The Bible) and the Holy Spirit as our sole source of guidance. No circle there - Just a straight path from God to the beleiver.
     
  7. thessalonian

    thessalonian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2003
    Messages:
    1,767
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lorelei

    "Calvinist does not equal Baptist"

    Where did I say it did. But many Baptist websites speak of Calvinism and their adherence to 5 points Calvinism.. You know TULIP. Perhaps you don't


    "they never explain their reasonings for accepting sin, "

    Lorelie dear. Whatever are you talking about. The Catholic Church has a far more developed understanding of moral theology than the Bapitst Church can ever even claim to. And what makes you think we are not held accountable for our sins. That is exactly what Catholicism is about. God in the end is the ultimate judge of whether one truly repented of their sins or not. If they didn't, hell is not such a great place. Once again we have another "expert" on Catholicism on the board who speaks out of nothing more than sterotypes and biggotry. Sorry to say that but has become quite quickly appaent that that is the case with you. Sometimes we must be a bit harsh. After all even Jesus called the Pharasees a brood of vipers.

    Oh, by the way, I have been meaning to go to the library at the U of M and do a little research on the KKK. I am wondering if there is a particular religion that they derived from. I saw a claim on the interent (not a Catholic site by the way) that they in general were Baptists and that even a pastor or two dawned those white robes. Wonder how they justified that. One of these days I will get around to it.

    Blessings.
     
  8. trying2understand

    trying2understand
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2001
    Messages:
    3,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    I must admit that the opening post to this thread is too disjointed for me to make any sense of it.

    Perhaps those of you in agreement with it can explain the point of it to me.
     
  9. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/curtis.gif>

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2001
    Messages:
    20,264
    Likes Received:
    4
    We are saying the RCC covers up it's past sins.
     
  10. BrianT

    BrianT
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2002
    Messages:
    3,516
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lorelei,

    What from your post doesn't apply to other denominations? "Independent Baptists" are "accountable to no one" and criticise and condemn anyone who attends a different type of church, sometimes even if that church is "Baptist".

    The "circular reasoning" you explain, I've experienced in almost every church I've ever attended, and 99.99% of the time that has been a Protestant church, usually Baptist.

    So what do you suggest?
     
  11. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2002
    Messages:
    2,631
    Likes Received:
    0
    I can't even see a way to answer this. There is a question at the bottom. If I answer no, and even provide explanation, I'll just get accused of more "circular reasoning." It's clear from the entire first post that you're mind is already made up; I see no room to allow me convince you otherwise.

    Was this for discussion, or to rant?

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  12. thessalonian

    thessalonian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2003
    Messages:
    1,767
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lorelei,

    Here is an interesting article. I will quote some salient parts:

    http://www.detnet.com/wilke/klan1.html

    "The father of Texas Fundamentalism, J. Frank Norris once brought the Klu Klux Klan into his First Baptist Church in Fort Worth. This event, which took place in 1924, according to author Gwin Morris, symbolized a chummy relationship Norris and Fundamentalism had with the Klan."

    "Danny Welch of Klanwatch in Montgomery, Alabama, lists Baptist ministers allegedly working in the Klan in the 1990s. "

    Wow, that's not too long ago is it. Wonder how they splain that.

    "Author Barry Hankins writes that J. Frank Norris often spoke favorably of the Klan. Recall the Klan claimed to support Portestant principles often attacking Catholics and Jews. This made them acceptable to the outer fringe of those within Fundamentalist circles. "

    Blessings
     
  13. JFS

    JFS
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2002
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    0
    [“I very seldom interact here because I find most of the discussions futile. How can you have a fruitful discussion with people who follow a leader that is accountable to no one. They will argue day after day how their leader is accountable to God, but that is not the reality.”]

    Lorelei, who are you accountable to? I bet you would say God. If this is the case why don’t you afford the same curtsey to the Pope? If you can be accountable to God so can the Pope?

    [“The fact is that the catholic religion is accountable to no one.”]

    Prove it.

    [“They say they are in unison with the Holy Scriptures, but only they can interpret those scriptures correctly.’”]

    Show please, where this is the case

    [“They claim the Pope is infallible in doctrine, but have no other proof than the word of the Popes who make this claim.”]

    I think you would ignore any proof we would present. It has been my observation that people who write this kind of a post are generally blind to what people have to write.

    [“Catholics get so upset when we remember the crusades and the many times innocent people were burned at the stake for daring to speak out against the church. They refuse to put their church in a position of accountability and refuse to see how incidences like these damage their credibility.”]

    Show me were, in writing, that the RCC sanctioned the brutality that occurred during the Crusades. Evil people do evil things.

    [“In all other areas of our lives, we deal with people based upon their credibility. Would you honestly invest money in a business that you knew robbed from people in the past? Would you vote for a president that openly killed any opponent that didn't agree with him? Would you knowingly invite a mass murderer in your home simply because he said he wasn't going to do that anymore? I don't think we would do any of these things, and why is that?”]

    What does this have to do with anything?


    [“Oh, they will insist they are indeed accountable to God, but they have no proof other than the fact that their church says so. Do you see the circular reasoning in this?”]

    So prove to me that you are accountable to God. I bet you will get dizzy trying. (It’s that circular thing) ;)
    If you are going to complain about RCC doctrine pick a subject and lets deal with it. Don’t write things in general. Lets deal with facts.


    God Bless you. [​IMG]
    Yours truly in Christ,

    John
     
  14. trying2understand

    trying2understand
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2001
    Messages:
    3,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    How does that fit with the "circular reasoning thing?

    I don't think that that is her point.

    But given how poorly the point was presented, who knows.
     
  15. Lorelei

    Lorelei
    Expand Collapse
    <img src ="http://www.amacominc.com/~lorelei/mgsm.

    Joined:
    May 25, 2001
    Messages:
    2,045
    Likes Received:
    0


    I know it and disgaree with it, yet I am still baptist. What Calvin did in his life has no effect on me or my beliefs.



    They don't understand it better, they invented it to suit their needs.

    As for the KKK, again you are excusing the sins of the man who supposedly is THE ruler of the church here on earth by comparing it to the sins of men whom you would call heretics. How is this justification for what your church leaders have done and are now doing that is contrary to God's will?

    As a catholic, wouldn't you expect a person who is not part of your church to commit such atrocities? How does that excuse the pope and bishops for covering up and commiting sexual acts with children? How does that excuse the deaths that they have caused in the past?

    It doesn't excuse it but rather shows how even the pope has no greater power than any of us. It surely doesn't prove that his words of doctrine are inspired.

    ~Lorelei
     
  16. Lorelei

    Lorelei
    Expand Collapse
    <img src ="http://www.amacominc.com/~lorelei/mgsm.

    Joined:
    May 25, 2001
    Messages:
    2,045
    Likes Received:
    0
    Get a bible and read it. It has been tested and tried and never failed to be inaccurate. If the pope or I or anyone else teachings anything contrary to it, then dismiss it as a false doctrine.

    ~Lorelei
     
  17. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2002
    Messages:
    2,631
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, since there are no contradictions in the Catholic faith in regards to Holy Scripture, I guess I'm doing allright, then.

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  18. BrianT

    BrianT
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2002
    Messages:
    3,516
    Likes Received:
    0
    Get a bible and read it. It has been tested and tried and never failed to be inaccurate. If the pope or I or anyone else teachings anything contrary to it, then dismiss it as a false doctrine.
    ~Lorelei
    </font>[/QUOTE]Why do 50 Protestants, all reading the Bible, argue about what it says? Why does a Baptist church say the Anglicans are out to lunch, the Anglicans say the Lutherans are out to lunch, and the Lutherans say the Baptists are out to lunch? Yes, we can all "get a Bible and read it", but when we say only we are interpreting it correctly, are we not committing the exact same circular reasoning you are talking about?
     
  19. Lorelei

    Lorelei
    Expand Collapse
    <img src ="http://www.amacominc.com/~lorelei/mgsm.

    Joined:
    May 25, 2001
    Messages:
    2,045
    Likes Received:
    0


    He can be, but he chooses not to be. Instead he plays God by saying his office and church are the final authority on all interpretations of God's Word. Words that were spoken before the office of pope ever existed.



    Prove that he is held accountable to God. If you disgree with His doctrine, can you prove Him wrong? How do you disprove someone who makes up all the rules?



    I don't have to, it's been done several times in this forum, but you can't see it because you argue using your own evidence which comes from the pope's(past and present) own interpretation of them. Whether or not it fits in unison with His Word, you accept what they say.



    What would your proof be, a quote from yet another pope?



    When does the death of a man in the name of Christ turn form simply killing in the name of Christ to brutality?



    It shows that in all other areas of life you wouldn't be blindly following the catholic church.


    That is the point of this thread, we can't deal in facts, because you will only accept the facts as the church defines them.

    ~Lorelei
     
  20. Lorelei

    Lorelei
    Expand Collapse
    <img src ="http://www.amacominc.com/~lorelei/mgsm.

    Joined:
    May 25, 2001
    Messages:
    2,045
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am sorry you do not like the way I presented this material. If this is your opinion of my writing ability, that is fine with me. However, I believe the rules of this board say we should show grace to others (See posting rule number 2). If you have a problem with what I said, then address it. If you just can't get past my inability to articulate my points, then maybe you should avoid the thread all together.

    ~Lorelei
     

Share This Page

Loading...