Crowns Cast Before God's Throne

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by TaliOrlando, Oct 31, 2006.

  1. TaliOrlando

    TaliOrlando
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    Who Will Cast These Crowns? Why Will These Crowns Be Cast? When Will These Crowns Be Cast?



    "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter ['after these things'].

    And immediately I was ['I became'] in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

    And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

    The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

    Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created" (Rev. 4:1, 2, 4, 10, 11).
     
  2. J. Jump

    J. Jump
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    Tali that is a great question. The short answer is they seem to be the "leaders" of the angels that didn't follow Satan in his rebellion. They will cast their crowns at the feet, becuase as Scripture tells us the next world will not be subject to angelic rule and therefore they will not need their crows any longer.

    Another way we can tell these are the unfallen angels is their crowns are stephanos and not diadems.
     
  3. genesis 12-15

    genesis 12-15
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    The elders in God's glorious kingdom, crowned with the crown of salvation, worshipping His Majesty, lay their crowns at His feet, not willing that any should worship anyone but Jesus. It is an indication of their humbleness before our Majestic Savior. They "bow low" before Him. That's it.
     
  4. James_Newman

    James_Newman
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    I'd have to disagree with you, J. I believe the elders are Christians who have been raptured. In chapter 5, we find them singing a song...
    Revelation 5:8-10
    8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odors, which are the prayers of saints.
    9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
    10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

    These are believers who have been redeemed by the blood, and have already received their crowns at the beginning of the tribulation.
     
  5. J. Jump

    J. Jump
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    Then why would they be giving their crowns back if they are about to rule? Again why the number 24? It doesn't make any sense to have these as Christians giving back their crowns right before they are to go rule and reign, becuase we have no picture of them receiving them back to rule and reign.

    But I will take a look again to take into consideration what you have posted.
     
  6. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
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    An unfallen angel has no need to be redeemed. The 24 clearly state they have been redeemed.

    Is it possible the redeemed could be patriarchal characters that were redeemed from the grave who had died before the cross, i.e., Moses, Abraham, etc.?

    An interesting term in the passage that refer to the four and twenty is the word 'elders'. Elders is the same office as Bishop or Pastor. The four and twenty had to be people of authority.
     
  7. J. Jump

    J. Jump
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    Well after just a little research this may quickly turn into a KJV debate :) Here is what the KJV says:

    9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

    Here is the NASB:

    9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

    We have two completely different pictures here. And here's why the NASB is the correct one IMO. Not only do you have the elders singing the song, but you also have the four creatures singing this song. So if the KJV is correct then not only were the elders redeemed, but the beasts were redeemed for some reason as well.

    Christ's death was just for mankind, so the four living creatures had nothing to be redeemed of therefore the elders are not humans, but angels.

    SFIC again aided my point when he said
    They were in authority. These were the 24 leaders of the ruling class of angels that were given originally given dominion over the earth. They did not follow Satan's rebellion so their crowns are not diadems (which speaks of current rulership), but are stephanos (which speaks of authority, but not currently acting authority).

    Again the number 24 is a big key in this understanding as it speaks of governmental rulership because it is divisiable by 12, and so originally there were 36 elders 12 of which followed with Satan and 24 which did not. The original 36 is a view of governmental perfection because it is 3 (perfect number) sets of 12 (number of government).

    Hope that sheds some light on the subject.
     
  8. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
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    Utter confusion
     
  9. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
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    The fact that 'beasts' in this passage can be translated either animal or living creature, I would lean more toward it being a living creature... something redeemed by Christ's blood. Is not man called a new creature in the Word of God if he is in Christ Jesus?

    Not just the Elders were included in playing harps, but the beasts were given the ability to play the harps as well.

    No, the beasts were redeemed. I beleive the KJV is more correct.
     
  10. J. Jump

    J. Jump
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    Well when you go back to the original language it doesn't support the KJV view of things. The "us" in verse 10 is in the third person. Us is not a third person pronoun. The correct translation would be them as the NASB renders it not us.

    As far as I can tell there isn't a pronoun in verse nine.

    So again I don't know what your support is going to be because the original language doesn't back the KJV up. But I would be willing to listen to what you think the KJV is correct and how a third person plural pronoun in the original langauge should really be a first person plural pronoun.
     
  11. James_Newman

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    Oh, its definitely a KJV issue ;)

    I just pulled this up with a quick googling.

    So I guess the KJV disagrees with the older and more textually credible manuscripts. Go figure.
     
  12. Chemnitz

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    I am not even sure the who or when is even important as the point of the passage is the acknowledgement of God alone being worthy of honor and power. But as for who they are I lean towards the heads of the 12 tribes and the 12 apostles, illustrating the unity of the old testament and new testament church under God.
     

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