Crucified with Him- No longer Serving Sin

I don't think anyone here is saying it's ok to sin. Sin exactly what 1 John 3:4 says it is, and as far as I know, no one is arguing against that. But it's also very clear if you read Romans 7 that justified sinners still battle sin in thier lives, and more often than not fail.

Case in point, when I was converted, I stopped drinking large amounts of alcohol and getting drunk. Does that make me any more holy in God's sight? No, it doesn't. I still get angry from time to time, I have a slip of the tounge and say profanity, I even entertain thoughts that I shouldn't entertain. Are those things ok? No they aren't, I hate it when I do them.

There are times when I want to read my Bible or I want to read some Puritan writings and I get sidetrackied somehow. There are times when I know I should be praising God in prayer, but I end up falling asleep prayerless, or the feeble prayers I do offer up leave much to be desired. There are times when I do something and I know I should repent and I do repent, but in all honesty, what work of repentence is truly good enough for our most Holy and Righteous God?

I say yea and amen to Romans 6, how can we live any longer in sin? But I have to admit that Romans 7 desribes my everyday life. It's a grueling everyday battle against the world. the flesh and the devil. More often than not I lose, but thanks be to God, I have rightousness in Christ Jesus. Does that mean I say "oh well, I'm saved, let me go ahead and sin, because I couldn't stop anyway."? NO, God forbid! I try to be as Paul and the Puritans and the Reformers, I try to mortify sin in my mortal body. But I'm not always successful, but by grace I still try. But I don't think that just because I stopped drinking alcohol and stopped taking the Lord's name in vain on purpose, that I'm any holier than someone who does. Because I am not.


No matter how many things you put off, you're still a sinner. But by grace through faith in Jesus Christ you are justified. Then you are continually sanctified by the Holy Spirit. These are things that God does. We are truly under grace, not the law, because if we were under law, then we'd all be in a lot of trouble. I think that the statement about we are not under law, has something to do with Christ being the end of the law for all those who believe. We stop looking to the law for righteousness, and we look to Christ alone.


I have to go now, or else I'm gonna be late for work.

Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

 

1 Cor 6 argues that we should not live corrupt lives as those people live prior to conversion and Christ said "by their fruits you SHALL know them".

Sometimes people argue that this is not true - and that the saints are just as corrupt as the wicked.

In Romans 6 Paul argues that "YOU ARE THE SLAVE of the one you serve either of SIN resulting in death or of righteousness".

You can not use Romans 7 against Romans 6. Both are saying the same thing. Slavery to sin is sign of the unsaved unregenerate heart. STRUGGLE with sin is the sin of the saved.

And Romans 7 does NOT say that "more often than not" the saints fail to avail themselves of the promises of God.

in 1John 2:1 John says "these things I write to you that you SIN NOT - but IF anyone sins we have an advocate with the father".

Others revise this as "these things I write to you to show that you can not actually stop sinning - and if anyone does that too shall pass and they will lapse back into non-step transgression".

But another point in the Romans 6 argument is that the LAW that DEFINES sin - still EXISTS because it still shows what "slavery to sin" is -- for those who constantly break it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Until we realize that there is no "test" or "sign" as to whether someone is saved or not discussions like these will continue to go on and unfortunately a great many Christians will be unfortunately yoked and burdened by works and forever wondering if they are saved or not. They will always be wondering if they did enough works or the right kind of works.

As long as works and eternal (spiritual) salvation are used in the same breath mistakes are going to be made. Nowhere in Scripture does God ever require a "test" or a "sign" that one is saved. I don't know why we humans do. That has always puzzled me.

I guess it's just something about adding to what God already said. My experience in visiting with pastoral search committees is the same way. God has His standards for pastors and then the search committee adds their own on top of that.

Let's just be satisfied with what God has said whether it makes any human sense to us or not, or whether we like what has been said or not.

 

If you will stop believing what you are told and listen to those you are speaking with you will us say:
IT IS NOT ALRIGHT TO SIN !!! But the fact we do sin at times does not change anything.
Paul, one of the greatest men of faith said this JUST AFTER chapter 6:

Though our spirit has been cleansed and untouclable by sin our flesh in which we live is still corrupt. This is why we need to renew our minds daily that we may live lives not after the flesh but the Spirit.

You went off track first :thumbs:

We WILL sin but we should not live lives OF sin. We are to pursue a life that seperates us from sin. As we grow in Christ He reveals constantly those areas that have not been brought in our lives under submission to His authority and manner of life. Anyone who thinks they don't sin is an out right Liar! (according to scripture) One sin ALL men are consistantly guilty of with regard to the commandments (I don't care who you are) Is to love the Lord with all your heart, mind and strength. There has never been a person alive to abey that commandment in full, but we are to obey it. Therefore we are ALL guilty of breaking the very commandments Jesus said keep. All born agian children of God desire to love God like this but on this side of heaven we all fall short and therefore it is sin. But what a Joy to strive in keeping it.

We are considered to have no sin because we are in Christ who is sinless. When God sees us He sees us in Christ who is sinless and so we share that same state.

 

This is not a subject where we all get together and test other people to see if they are saved. But we CAN accept the Word of God on this point.

Matt 7

13 "" Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 ""For the gate is small and the way is narrow[/b] that leads to life, and there are few who find it.[/b]

15 ""Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 ""You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?

17 ""So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 ""A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 "" Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 ""So then, you will know them by their fruits.

21 "" Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, [b]but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

 

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

James makes it clear (as does Christ in Mark 7) that it is from the heart - from the THOUGHTs from the mind that sin comes and sin defiles.

Paul argues that the new-creation the "inward man" is created in agreement with the Law of God under the New Covenant "I will WRITE My law upon their heart".

But it is not the body that claims promises in 1Cor 10 and the way of escape -- it is the inner man - the new creation is getting the 1Cor 10 victory taking the way of escape.

Otherwise the helpless saint is still held bondage to sin and rebellion.

This is why we HAVE Romans 8 (the solution) following Romans 7 "the problem".

Romans 8 shows us that the solution is to literally walk after the Spirit and "by faith to put to DEATH the deeds of the flesh".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Our salvation doesn't come from walking after the Spirit but something that is done by the one indwelt by the Spirit. We can still walk after the flesh but God (as a Father should) will bust our behinds and will bring us back into proper fellowship once again. I agree that there is NOW no condemnation (judgment) for those in Christ. But least we bring shame to God through our lives God is establishing a teaching through Paul that shows a believer who to walk as a true disciple should. Romans is the basic Hand guide to our life as a born again Child of God.

 

I almost agree with you. The first step in walking by the Spirit comes when the Spirit "convicts" us of sin and righteousness and judgment.

It is when we hear that knocking at the door and then choose to go and open it -- resulting in the Rev 3 promised fellowship with Christ.

"As you have RECEIVED Christ Jesus SO WALK in Him" Col 2:6

Our daily Christian walk flows out of that first step in choosing salvation - choosing repentance, choosing to open the door. THEN the TREE having been newly created - newly "made good" produced Good fruit - the walking in the Spirit in sanctification seen in Romans 8. Romans 7 is justification without the ongoing soluiton of sanctification. Romans 8 combines both!

Christ argues in John 3 that even THAT FIRST step is done in response to the working of the Holy Spirit within us.

in Romans 2 Paul argues that the circumcision of the heart in the Gospel new birth is done via the Holy Spirit.

In Christ,

Bob

 

But a persons walk is something they continue in by nature. But there is another nature that wars within them, that of the flesh. What I mean by that is the natural man which is in union with the [corrupt] flesh. Paul espouses this same understanding by saying

The natural man is that which wars against the spiritual man. This is why we find Paul stating other things like: "...my spirit is willing but my flesh is weak..." and is the same reason Paul states this later in Romans:

Because unless we renew our minds (change our way of thinking) we will consistantly look and live just like the world. We live our lives in the Spirit or better unto God that the World may see that Gods will is Good, without flaw, and acceptable or agreeable. But we must keep and live our lives in before the eyes of God so we can know what is pleasing to Him with regard to what we are doing.

 

Agreed. The natural man is the personification of the sinful nature and the "inward man" the personification of the "new Creation" that comes about at the New Birth.

in Romans 7 Paul shows us the struggle that they are engaged in.

"Within ME" (Paul's words) the PERSON, there is war between these two natures-- once I am a Christian.

But Romans 8 shows the solution (this side of glorification) to be perseverance in "walking after the spirit and NOT after the flesh".

It shows us that the BY the Spirit we can "put to death the deeds of the flesh".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Claudia, Please point out one post in which ANYONE has said it is "all right to sin."

I've enjoyed our discussions, but this is getting tiresome. No one has said that.

I don't know a BB poster that would disagree in any way with Romans 6:1.

 

I'm a lurker in this section for the most part. I have steadily read these posts (including the ridiculous Alien ones- But I had to get in that) And I have to agree with completely with rbell. I haven't 'seen' and posting in which a persons says once saved your cleard to live a life of sin or even as a christian it is OK to sin. No one has said this.

What has been stated time and time again (along with scriptures to bear it out) is that we are GOING to sin (since we are in sinful flesh and have a mind in need of constant re-newing) but we are not to live IN sin.

 

claudia,

Please put up a post in which anyone has said, "It's all right to sin."

Thanks,
Rbell

 

cute:tongue3:

Now...can you really find a post in which a poster was saying that it is all right to sin?

That's an important distinction worth making. That indictment has been implied before...but IMO it is baseless.

But if I'm wrong, then show me, please.

 

Then by implying that folks believe such...isn't that a mis-characterization of their position?
I believe you're asking this more in the rhetorical sense...but even though I've posted this statement:

yet, in the same thread, I (and others) would be accused of being "soft on sin," or "coddling sin," and even "reveling in sin."

I don't think the argument is how God views sin. It would seem to me that all of us are in agreement on that.