Dan and All Israel

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by J.D., Jan 29, 2009.

  1. J.D.

    J.D.
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Messages:
    3,553
    Likes Received:
    8
    Dan is not included in the twelve tribes of Israel listed in Revelation 7. Some commentators have said that Dan fell into idolatry and is therefore not included in the 144 thousand.

    Question: How can "all Israel" be saved (Rom 11) if Dan is not included?
     
  2. canadyjd

    canadyjd
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    3,896
    Likes Received:
    0
    Because "all Israel" from Rom 11 is referring to the "children of the promise" (Rom 9) not children of the flesh.

    The children of the promise are comprised of believing Jew and Gentile, chosen and predestined before the foundation of the world to be granted grace and brought to salvation by the power of God and transformed into one new man in Christ Jesus.

    BTW, the 144,000 is a symbolic number and not to be taken literally.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  3. J.D.

    J.D.
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Messages:
    3,553
    Likes Received:
    8
    Thank you. I wonder how those who take the 144K literally would explain it.
     
  4. canadyjd

    canadyjd
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    3,896
    Likes Received:
    0
    I knew that.:smilewinkgrin:

    peace to you:praying:
     
  5. DrRandyGrace

    DrRandyGrace
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2007
    Messages:
    137
    Likes Received:
    0
    I believe that the 144,000 is a literal number. I also have no problem with the fact that they are not listed in Rev. 7, yet all of Israel will be saved. One does not preclude the other.
     
  6. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    You hit the nail [metaphorically:laugh: ] on the head!:thumbsup:
     
  7. Me4Him

    Me4Him
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,214
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dan is believed by many to be the tribe from which the "Son of predition" originates, the reason he is left out.

    Ge 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    Ge 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

    Manasseh replaces Dan in Rev, Ephraim is represented as the church, both "sons of Joseph", which prefigured Jesus,

    BTW, Ephraim isn't one of the tribes in Rev.
     
  8. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    Are only those 12 listed considered "all" Israel? I thought they represented the 12 tribes of Israel.
     
  9. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    This imagery about the serpent is not necessarily negative. This is from a paper I wrote for my OT1 course in seminary on the imagery of the serpent in Egypt and the OT:

    http://www.christiananswersforthenewage.org/Articles_Serpents3.html
     
  10. J.D.

    J.D.
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Messages:
    3,553
    Likes Received:
    8
    I was just about to say that you made a good point, but then I noticed this in the passage:

    "of all the tribes of the children of Israel (Rev 7:4).
     
  11. J.D.

    J.D.
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Messages:
    3,553
    Likes Received:
    8
    What is your opinion of the word "sealed" in Rev 7? What does it mean?
     
  12. Me4Him

    Me4Him
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,214
    Likes Received:
    0
    most commentators believe that the serpent image in this passage is positive since this is a blessing. Dan, though a small tribe, will be as shrewd as a serpent,

    Da 11:23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.


    I've never really dug into the tribe of Dan to learn much about it, but what little I've heard seen to match up with what little I know.


    Moses casting his rod down and it turning into a serpent, prefigure/foreshadows,

    God casting his rod down and it turning into a Serpent. (Trib)

    2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, (AC/SATAN) and with the stripes of the children of men:

    Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff (power/authority) in their hand is mine indignation.

    Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    Re 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

    Re 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power (Staff) was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

    God's "Rod/Staff" to the church are "Comfort" (er)

    Ps 23:4 thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

    But to Israel, they are "Tribulations".

    Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, (AC next) the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
     
  13. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    That can still be taken as all the tribes, with none of the tribes being left out. I still don't think that is all of Israel, but all tribes being listed.
     

Share This Page

Loading...