Daniel 3 MV vs. KJV

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Phillip, Mar 22, 2004.

  1. Phillip

    Phillip
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    Is it sons of God or sons of the gods?

    Oh boy, I can see the KJVO's jumping all over this, but I'm wondering if the difference is in the underlying texts or the translations.

    KJVO's you can do you thing since this is a debate site, but I want to hear from Dr. Bob or some other people who are aware of what they are talking about.

    NKJV and KJV use singular

    NIV, ESV, NASB plural. Plural seems to make more sense knowing the background of Nebachadnezzer (sp?) he would not know what THE SON OF GOD would look like, but to say one of the sons of the gods would indicate that it was an angel or even Christ, but at least someone he recognized with having deity. :D
     
  2. robycop3

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    Common sense says a pagan king like Neb wouldn't know who the Son of God was unless He identified Himself, which, according to the Scripture, He didn't do. Shoot, even DANIEL didn't know who Jesus was, then.

    When Jesus appeared to Joshua as Captain of the Lord's army he didn't recognize Him either. In fact, no one recognized Him during any of His pre-carnate appearances! Why should we expect a king of pagan Babylon to recognize Him when His own worshippers didn't?

    Some KJVOs argue that Neb had been converted by then, but Scripture shows this to be untrue by stating WHY the fiery furnace was stoked to begin with. It was to punish those who refused to worship Neb's IDOL. That was hardly the act of a righteous king!

    I would like to see someone chip in with some comments on the interpretation of the mss.
     
  3. HankD

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    It is Son of God in the Hebrew (blueletter) both "son" and "God" is singular.

    Son - bar - singular
    God - Elah -singular (instead of elohim - pl.)

    For "sons of God" see Genesis 6:2 "ben elohim" both sons and "God" are plural form.

    HankD
     
  4. Pastor Larry

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    Actually Hank, the form in Dan 3 is a masculine plural, as are most references to God. "Elohim" ... most commonly translated as "God" is a plural form. It can be either "God" or "gods." The form in Dan 3 is from the root "elah" but it is "elohin" ... a masc plural form.

    Therefore, both "God" and "gods" are correct translations of the word. The question is, Which did Nebuchadnezzar mean. It seems likely that he meant "gods" since he was a polythiest. Seeing a man walking in the midst of a roaring fire would naturally lead to the conclusion that there must be some supernatural force at work. A polytheist would naturally attribute that to his "gods," not to "God," since he didn't believe in "God."
     
  5. Phillip

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    From what little I could understand, I suspected this was the case, but needed somebody with much more experience and intelligence to confirm it.

    Even just taking the English alone made no sense that Neb. would recognize the "Son of God" as such. Plus, the MS. must have been correct in either case, but the older translation didn't make sense. The newer made sense.

    Thank you for your input. .....greatly appreciated! [​IMG]
     
  6. RaptureReady

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    So the Pastor Larry bible says god and that is correct, right? :rolleyes: [​IMG]

    I'll take what God said and say "God" is the correct wording used here, not what Pastor Larry thinks is used or anyone else for that fact.
     
  7. Anti-Alexandrian

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    What amazes me is the level some will go to defend those renderings....That King was around Daniel a LOT!! The King knew good and well who God was.....

    A lot of lost folk will atest to who God is and Jesus also....


    A "son of the god's." Pfffftttt..
     
  8. Pastor Larry

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    Did you actually read what Larry said?? It doesn't appear so because you didn't get it right. Go back now and look at what Larry actually said and see if you can get it right this time.

    While I am waiting for that, let's look at what God said. God did not say "God." God said "elohin" which is a plural and can be translated as "gods." That is the word of God you are arguing with.

    It still amazes me how many of you people will reject God's word in favor of the translation of the Anglicans.

    AA, How do you know that King was around Daniel a lot? Can you provide some proof for that assertion? Or is that just something you made up?
     
  9. Anti-Alexandrian

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    No,it is not "just somthing I made up." Actualy,I was in error stating it was Daniel,when I was supposed to have typed the "3 Hebrew children" instead....

    My bad.

    But still,the King KNEW who God was..
     
  10. Phillip

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    And I'm sure you would recognize the Son of God if He walked up to you right this minute? What would you base it on; how much you have been around your preacher? [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  11. Phillip

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    Uh, so I suppose you are a KJVO who thinks the KJV has corrected the Hebrew (and Greek) manuscripts? :rolleyes:
     
  12. Pastor Larry

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    Please tell us how you know this then. I noticed you just skipped right past the proof spot. All you did was repeat the assertion while changing the names. We all make mistakes. That is fine. But how do you know that the King was around these three men a lot?

    And you know this how?? And how do you know that he was not referring to his pantheon of gods?

    Please start providing some proof with your assertions.
     
  13. robycop3

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    A_A:What amazes me is the level some will go to defend those renderings....That King was around Daniel a LOT!! The King knew good and well who God was.....

    BUT...was Neb WORSHIPPING God when he had a big statue erected & commanded his people to worship IT? was he worshipping God when he had the 3 Jews thrown into a furnace for refusing to bow to a statue?

    Did Daniel know Jesus by sight or even by name? If even Daniel, perhaps the most righteous man of his time, didn't mention Him except on prophecy, can we REALLY expect a pagan king to know Him by sight, even in the midst of a burning furnace?

    This is yet another silly, unfounded KJVO argument.
     
  14. aefting

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    So, who do you think the fourth person was? Regardless of what Nebuchadnezzar might have thought, I am inclined to believe that it was the Angel of the Lord in both Daniel 3 and 6.

    Andy
     
  15. HankD

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    Oops, you are absolutely correct.
    My mistake. I'm sorry all.

    The question is did king Neb know any of Daniel's theology and did he believe it or was it just head knowledge even if he did?

    Personally I could live with either translation because we just don't know King Neb's mind at the time.

    My preference would be "a Son of God".
    I realize it's stretch for King Neb.
    Although if God can speak through a donkey, I guess He would give Neb the right words too.

    Bottom line everyone: I don't think it's an issue to get ugly about.

    [​IMG]

    HankD
     
  16. Phillip

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    Nah, just a chance for KJVO's to take pot-shots (drive-by shootings) in a thread--based on a simple subject containing a question of what the original texts said in this location.

    :D :D :D
     
  17. Pastor Larry

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    I too could live with either translation, though I am slightlymore convinced by "gods" because of the polytheistic unbelieving heart of Neb ...
     
  18. robycop3

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    Aefting:So, who do you think the fourth person was? Regardless of what Nebuchadnezzar might have thought, I am inclined to believe that it was the Angel of the Lord in both Daniel 3 and 6.

    A distinct possibility. One thing's for certain-Neb knew there was a 4th Person in the furnace who was much more than just a man.

    And yes, he knew who God was, since God had earlier interpreted his dream through Daniel, who gave all the credit to God. But Neb didn't start WORSHIPPING God until after his 7 years of insanity.

    Even after the miracle in the furnace, Neb only went so far as to prohibit SPEAKING against God. He wasn't converted-yet.
     
  19. robycop3

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    Pastor Larry:I too could live with either translation, though I am slightlymore convinced by "gods" because of the polytheistic unbelieving heart of Neb ...

    I tend to agree, since it wasn't time for the Messiah to be revealed, and not even Daniel yet knew who He was.
     

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