Daniel 7:9 cast down or set up?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Logos1560, Jan 11, 2009.

  1. Logos1560

    Logos1560
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    At Daniel 7:9 where the 1535 Coverdale's, 1537 Matthew's, and 1540 Great Bibles have "the seats were prepared" and where the 1560 Geneva Bible and the 1568 Bishops' Bible have "the thrones were set up," the 1611 KJV has "the thrones were cast down?"

    Does any one know why the KJV's rendering seems so different from that of the pre-1611 English Bibles?

    Which of these renderings is more accurate?
     
  2. Logos1560

    Logos1560
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    In his commentary on Daniel, Oliver B. Greene wrote: "He saw thrones cast down--meaning that he saw thrones placed" (p. 253).

    In his commentary on Daniel, John Walvoord wrote: "The expression in the King James Version that 'the thrones were cast down' is better interpreted as 'the thrones were placed'" (pp. 163-164).

    According to these comments, it does not seem that the KJV's rendering at Daniel 7:9 was an improvement on the rendering of the pre-1611 English Bibles.

    What truth of the original caused the KJV translators to change the rendering of the Bishops' Bible at Daniel 7:9?
     
  3. Samuel Owen

    Samuel Owen
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    It could be all in just which thrones, are being spoken of here ?.
     
  4. Deacon

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    It was probably translated that way out of consistancy.

    R – M - H [Piel] An Aramaic homonym meaning: to throw or to place on

    and whoso falleth not down and worshippeth shall the same hour be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.
    Daniel 3:6 AV 1873

    and whoso falleth not down and worshippeth, that he should be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.
    Daniel 3:11 AV 1873

    Then the king commanded, and they brought Daniel, and cast him into the den of lions. Now the king spake and said unto Daniel, Thy God whom thou servest continually, he will deliver thee.
    Daniel 6:16 AV 1873

    Now if ye be ready that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the image which I have made; well: but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who is that God that shall deliver you out of my hands?
    Daniel 3:15 AV 1873

    And he commanded the most mighty men that were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace.
    Daniel 3:20 AV 1873

    Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
    Daniel 3:21 AV 1873

    Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellers, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
    Daniel 3:24 AV 1873

    Also see Ezra 7:24; Daniel 6:7, 12, 16, 24; 7:9

    Suggestions:
    Look at these verse in the older translations and see how they translated the word.

    Find the who was on the translating team of the KJV in this section and assess their education and abilities in Aramaic [I'd guess it wasn't highly skilled].

    Rob
     
  5. Jerome

    Jerome
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    Actually, the KJV benefited from Aramaic scholarship unavailable in the previous attempts.

    "By the 1560s, the basic philological tools for Aramaic study had been forged" ---Stephen G. Burnett, "Christian Aramaism: The Birth and Growth of Aramaic Scholarship in the Sixteenth Century"

    "Johannes Immanuel Tremellius (1510-1580), who converted to Christianity from Judaism before 1540, converted to Protestantism, and served as professor of Old Testament at Heidelberg and Sedan....his Latin Old Testament (1575-1579), based on Hebrew, Aramaic and Syriac texts, became the standard Reformed version. He also published an Aramaic and Syriac grammar (1569)." Historical Handbook of Major Biblical Interpreters, p. 142

    Tremellius: solia abiecta "thrown away"
    cf. Vulgate: throni positi
     
  6. Deacon

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    The Best Translators of that Day!

    First Oxford Company
    (Isaiah, Jeremiah, Laminatations, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Malachi)

    John Harding (Director) Professor of Hebrew; President Magdalen College, Oxford

    John Reynolds (or) Rainolds, who first suggested the work; was a man of great attainments in Hebrew and Greek. died 1607.

    Thomas Holland (Puritan) rector of Exeter College, considered a prodigy in all branches of literature. Born 1539, died 1612.

    Richard Kilby Rector and Regius Professor of Divinity, Lincoln College, Oxford Oxford Professor of Hebrew, was reckoned among the first Hebraists of his day.

    Miles Smith (Strict Calvinist) Bishop of Gloucester was well acquainted with the Rabbinical learning, and well versed in Hebrew, Chaldee, Syriac and Arabic. He was often called a "walking library."

    Richard Brett Fellow of Lincoln under Kilby; scholar in Latin, Greek, Chaldee, Arabic, Hebrew and Aethiopic

    Richard Fairclough (or Featley) Vicar of Lambeth, Fellow of Corpus Christi, Oxford

    Rob
     
  7. jonathan.borland

    jonathan.borland
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    Perhaps we're expected to have to get an old dictionary out to find out that "cast down" actually meant "set up" at one time in ancient history.
     
  8. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    In 2009 Role Playing Gamers still 'cast down' dice to 'set up' playing characters.
     

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