Daniel 9:26, 27

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Primitive Baptist, Jan 23, 2005.

  1. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist
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    I have actually been studying Dispensationalism and the seventieth week in Daniel.

    Verse 26 divides the 490 years into three segments (seven weeks, threescore and two weeks, and one week). I don't claim to know why (maybe the Dispensationalists can help me here), but in verse 26, Gabriel tells Daniel, "...after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off..." Is there any confusion about what that is referring to? I think we all agree that that is a reference to the crucifixion of our Lord. Verse 26 continues "...the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary..." To quote Walvoord, "There is no complete destruction of Jerusalem at the end of the age as Zechariah 14:1-3 indicates that the city is in existence although overtaken by war at the very moment that Christ comes back in power and glory. Accordingly, it is probably better to consider all of verse 26 fulfilled historically." I understand by "historically," A.D. 70.

    Christ was crucified at the end of the 62 (threescore and two) weeks. With the first seven already fulfilled, that brings us to 69 (62+7=69). I think all, both Dispensationalists and Covenantalists are together at this point.

    Here is where the two part company...

    Scripture teaches us that Christ would be crucified AFTER the 62 weeks. Dispensationalists argue that Christ was crucified after the 62 weeks, but not necessarily during the 70th. The Covenantalist argues that it is only natural to assume that it was during the 70th, the 70th following chronologically the 69th. Now...

    1. How can the 70th week consist of a covenant made by a Messiah who was "cut off" at the end of the 62 weeks (bringing us to 69)?

    2. IF verse 27 is referring to the crucifixion "in the midst of the week" (in the middle of the 70th week), why did he say at the end of the 62 weeks in verse 26 and then say in the middle of the 70th week in verse 27? I mean...both could be true. Messiah could have been cut off after of the 62 weeks in the middle of the 70th. After all 70 does come after 69. However, why wouldn't Gabriel have said Messiah would be cut off after 65 1/2 weeks (the 62 plus the 3 1/2 of the seventieth) instead of separating the two. Do you think that might give us some insight as to why the three are separated (7, 62, 1)?

    Just remember...I'm not arguing the point. I'm just asking sincere questions and want answers. That's it.
     
  2. Primitive Baptist

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    Or just answer this...When did Jesus make a 7-yr. covenant with anybody?
     
  3. Ed Edwards

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    Brother Primitive Baptist, your questions defy answers.
    Your questions show the futility of resolving
    "he" in Daniel 9:27 as "Messiah".
    The first "he" and second "he" in Daniel 9:27
    refer to the "coming prince" of Daniel 9:26.
    I believe as a futurist that this coming prince
    is the antichrist of 1 John, and the Beast from the
    Sea of Revelation 13.

    Strange how different eschatologies are caused
    by the variant resolution of pronouns.

    In the past people did not honor members of the
    Holy Trinity by capitalizing pronouns reffering
    to Them. This helps with pronoun resolution.
    Now it is common to capitalize pronouns
    refering to members of the Holy Trinity.

    Daniel 9:27 (HCSB = HOlman Christian Standard Bible):

    He will make a firm covenant
    with many for one week,
    but in the middle of the week
    he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering.
    And the abomination of desolation
    will be on a wing of the temple
    until the decreed destruction
    is poured out on the desolator.

    The first "he" is capalized, the beginning of
    a sentence. The second "he" is the small letter
    "h" "he" denoting a Non-diety. Jesus, the Christ,
    is the subject of verse 26. Jesus is a member of
    the Blessed Trinity. The translators of the
    HCSB believe the second "he" has a referrant
    of "the coming prince". I believe that the
    referrant of the first "he" in Daniel 9:27 is
    also "the coming prince". It is the
    coming prince that does the covenent,
    puts a stop to sacrifice and offering
    and commits the AOD = abomination of desolation.

    ---------------------------------------
    I will show IT IS WRITTEN:
    The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
    the Tribulation period.
    The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
    The rapture/resurrection will occur without
    previous notice and before the Tribulation period
    (wrath).
    The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
    is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
    (time of the Anti-messiah)

    The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
    the Tribulation period. FOR IT IS WRITTEN
    in Daniel 9:26-27 (nKJV):

    "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah
    shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
    And the people of the prince who is to
    come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
    The end of it shall be with a flood,
    And till the end of the war desolations
    are determined.
    27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with
    many for one week; But in the middle
    of the week He shall bring an end
    to sacrifice and offering. And on
    the wing of abominations shall be
    one who makes desolate, Even until
    the consummation, which is determined,
    Is poured out on the desolate."

    Please note the lower case "h" in "he" in verse 27
    refering not to Messiah in verse 26 but the
    to the "prince that shall come".
    Note it is written that the Anti-messiah's seven years
    are divided in the middle by the abomination
    of desolation, dividing the 7-year period into
    to parts each 3½-years long (1260 days, 42 months).

    The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection,
    FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 1 Thessalonains 4:13-18 (KJV1873):

    But I would not have you to be ignorant,
    brethren, concerning them which are asleep,
    that ye sorrow not, even as others which have
    no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose
    again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
    will God bring with him.
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of
    the Lord, that we which are alive and remain
    unto the coming of the Lord shall
    not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from
    heaven with a shout, with the voice
    of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
    and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain
    shall be caught up together with them
    in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
    and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    The rapture/resurrection will occur without
    previous notice and before the Tribulation period
    (wrath) FOR IT IS WRITTEN in
    1 Thessalonains 5:1-10 (KJV1873):

    1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren,
    ye have no need that I write unto you.
    2 For yourselves know perfectly that
    the day of the Lord so cometh as
    a thief in the night.
    3 For when they shall say,
    Peace and safety; then sudden destruction
    cometh upon them, as travail upon
    a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
    4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness,
    that that day should overtake you as a thief.
    5 Ye are all the children of light,
    and the children of the day: we are
    not of the night, nor of darkness.
    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others;
    but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For they that sleep sleep in the night;
    and they that be drunken are drunken
    in the night.
    8 But let us, who are of the day,
    be sober, putting on the breastplate
    of faith and love; and for an helmet,
    the hope of salvation.
    9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath,
    but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 Who died for us, that, whether
    we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
    11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together,
    and edify one another, even as also ye do.

    The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
    is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
    (time of the Anti-messiah)
    FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (KJV1873):

    Now we beseech you, brethren,
    by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    and by our gathering together unto him,
    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
    or be troubled, neither by spirit,
    nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
    as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
    for that day shall not come, except
    there come a falling away first,
    and that man of sin be revealed,
    the son of perdition;

    I have shown IT IS WRITTEN:
    The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
    the Tribulation period.
    The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
    The rapture/resurrection will occur without
    previous notice and before the Tribulation period
    (wrath).
    The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
    is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
    (time of the Anti-messiah)
    -------------------------------------------------------
    The correct answer to your questions, brother
    Primitive Baptist, is the Doctrine
    of the pretribulation rapture,
    pre-millinnial Second Advent, futurist (both the
    pretribulation rapture and pre-millinnial Second
    Advent are physical and will occur in the future
    /i.e. have NOT happend in the past/ ).
     
  4. rjprince

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    PrimBapt,

    Do not follow your 65 and ½ reasoning. You jump from seventy sevens, seven, sixty-two, and one and then add the years of the final week in as weeks. If you are going to add 3 and ½, you should add it to 483, not 69, or 62. It is seventy sevens that are determined, or 490 years.

    There is clearly a gap between the 69th and the 70th week. Even those who hold that the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 fulfilled the 70th week have a gap of about 30+ years. The difference is not in whether there is a gap, it is in how long. Some do argue for a gap between week seven and week eight, based on the breakdown into 7-62-1. The chronology of the first 69 does not require a gap between 7 and 8, according to the calculations of Sir Robert Anderson. Others, argue for the gap there as well.

    The “he” of verse 27 most naturally refers to the nearest antecedent, “the prince that shall come”, not “Messiah”. The Romans were the ones who destroyed the city and the sanctuary.

    My problem with the common amil/postmil interp of v. 27 is that it gives not satisfactory answers to some key issues in the passage.

    What was the covenant for one week, if it is talking about Messiah?

    When did the “sacrifice and oblation” cease?

    Why does Daniel view the destruction of the city and the sanctuary (v. 26) as occurring before the covenant of the final week?

    AND, how can the destruction of Jerusalem be reconciled with a view that Christ was cut off during the 70th week when His death and AD 70 are out of sequence and separated by 30+ years?
     
  5. rjprince

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    PrimBapt,

    Should have noted that I think I agree with where you seem to be headed with this, even if I don't agree with your 65 and 1/2 calculation.
     
  6. Primitive Baptist

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    Just look at it though...If the 70th week followed the 69th WITHOUT a gap, why did Gabriel separate the years thus - 7, 62, 1. After the 62, Messiah would be cut off. Amillennarians claim that Messiah being cut off was "in the midst of the week," or, 3 1/2 years into the 70th week. What they are teaching COULD be true, but the way Daniel worded the whole thing makes it seem doubtful. He said AFTER the 62 weeks Messiah would be cut off. And you're right, Jerusalem is destroyed before the covenant of the 70th week...The first 7 are fulfilled, the 62 are fulfilled. Messiah was crucified at the end of these bringing us to 69 weeks, or, 483 years. The Amillennialist says the Lord was crucified after the 62 weeks (the second segment into which the years are divided), but of course He was crucified in the 70th (the middle of the 70th to be exact) b/c that chronologically followed the 69th.

    After the 62 weeks, or, 434 days (years) Messiah was cut off.

    I was wrong about the 65.5 weeks...but the same problem exists to some degree. Why did he say AFTER 62 in the first place. Why did he not just say after 62.5 weeks if that's what he meant. He seemed to have blocked the 70th week off to itself. In Revelation 12 we have a a picture of the death of Christ and His ascension. Then we all of a sudden find Israel (the woman) in the midst of a 3.5 year time of tribulation under a character that looks VERY MUCH like the one Daniel described and Daniel even described him persecuting the saints 3.5 years as well...............Coincidence?
     
  7. Primitive Baptist

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    In Daniel 11:45 we have the "prince of the covenant" and that's not Jesus Christ!
     
  8. rjprince

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    PB,

    We are on the same page here, I am pretty sure! Comparing Scripture with Scripture and following a CLGH hermeneutic their interpretation of Messiah being cut off in the midst of the 70th week COULD NOT be true IMHO. Too many unanswered questions or at least ineffectively answered questions (see earlier post). Just noted that you added “When did Jesus make a 7-yr. covenant with anybody?” as I was writing my post, I asked this as well...

    Did you see the possibility of a gap between week 7 and 8?
     
  9. rjprince

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    Dan 11:22? for "prince of the covenant"?
     
  10. Primitive Baptist

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    Sorry...11:22...you're right.
     
  11. Primitive Baptist

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    I don't know...I've not really followed it through. But given the fact that there is an obvious gap (even in the Amillennial scheme), it's not unlikely. Give me some details.
     
  12. rjprince

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    Been quite a while since I have studied that point but the view basically holds that the time from the Decree of Cyrus to the "cutting off" of the Messiah covers a period of more than 483 years, thereby rejecting the chronology of Anderson. Do not know who specifically has published a detailed breakdown of alternative chronologies though.

    Would recommend “Dictionary of Premillennial Theology” edited by Mal Couch as a good general reference tool. The work gives a good overview of both the amil and premil views of Daniel’s Seventy Weeks. Under “Anderson, Sir Robert”, Couch notes that more recent works on the chronology shed more light on Anderson’s calculations. If it is of special interest let me know and will research my Theo Journals on the matter and forward to you.
     
  13. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge
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    This is a hard text which is crucial to eschatology.

    The text of Dan.9 has been argued from several faulty alleged facts. (One of them being 70 weeks running consecutively.) The prophecy does not concern AT ANY TIME, a sum of 69 weeks as consecutive. There are THREE PERIODS, which total 70 weeks. (7-62-1) One is distinguished by a break in the MIDST, not middle. The PROPHETIC statement of EVENTS determine the fulfillment, not HISTORICAL DATING.

    The second period of years is over, while the first one has started WITHOUT ending, and the last has not began AS OF YET.

    It appears there are "breaks" between all three, while some run concurrently.

    Check out the link and see what you think.

    http://p079.ezboard.com/fthemidweekrapturefrm91.showMessage?topicID=11.topic
     
  14. Grasshopper

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    Context, the 70 weeks deal with Old Covenant Jews and Jerusalem.

    Dan 9: 24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,


    Not all.

    Funny, the nearest antecedent to prince in 26 is Messiah the prince in vs. 25.

    It could be argued very easily that it was the Jews who destroyed their Temple and even the city. Just as the Romans crucified Jesus, the NT writers lay the blame on the Jews. The Jews instigated the war.

    They ceased when Messiah became the sacrifice.

    The Destruction was determined during the 70th week because of Jewish rejection, it was not to happen during the 70th week.(Luke 19:41-44) (Dt. 28)

    In the 70th week, Jesus came to finish up Old Covenant business with Judea and Israel. (Matt 10:6 & 15:24) Then the end would come.

    Perhaps Antiochus IV, 171BC

    I have found no matter which view you hold to it has it’s own problems in Dan 9.

    My questions:

    1. Why do we assume a gap? I don’t believe there is one. Only pre-suppositions lead one to insert a gap.
    2. Did Jesus know of this gap when He preached the Kingdom?
    3. If He did, then He offered a Kingdom which COULD NOT be accepted since I think we all agree the Kingdom comes at the end of the 70th week.
    4. If the Kingdom did not come because of Jewish rejection then the Kingdom was conditional(time-wise). Find me any OT or NT passages that says the Kingdom was in anyway conditional. Dan 2 makes no such statement.
    5. If there was a gap and Jesus didn’t know it then??? We don’t want to go there.
     
  15. Ed Edwards

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    Grasshopper: "1. Why do we assume a gap? I don’t believe there
    is one. Only pre-suppositions lead one to insert a gap."

    Actually the gap comes from the study of history.
    There was no physical throne in Jerusalem nor any physcial
    King Jesus reigning upon it Not following the 69th week
    nor the 70th week.

    Grasshopper: "2. Did Jesus know of this gap when He preached the Kingdom?"

    YEs, but he didn't tell anybody.

    Grasshopper: "3. If He did, then He offered a Kingdom
    which COULD NOT be accepted since I think we all agree
    the Kingdom comes at the end of the 70th week."

    Exactly. See Romans 11. I believe the the Millinnial Kingdom
    of God would have started in 40AD (33+7) had the Jews
    accepted the time of their visitation.

    Luke 19:41 (HCSB):

    As He approached and saw the city, He wept over it,
    42 saying, "If you knew this day what leads to peace--but now it is hidden from your eyes.
    43 For the days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you, surround you, and hem you in on every side.
    44 They will crush you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave one stone on another in you, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation."


    Grasshopper: "4. If the Kingdom did not come because of Jewish
    rejection then the Kingdom was conditional(time-wise).
    Find me any OT or NT passages that says the Kingdom was
    in anyway conditional. Dan 2 makes no such statement."

    One problem you have is that you don't understand that a Triune
    God has a Triune kingdom?

    1. the eternal kingdom within individual Christians
    2. the physical millinnial kingdom
    3. the eternal heavnly kingdom

    Someday i'll write a book.

    Grasshopper: "5. If there was a gap and Jesus didn’t know it then???
    We don’t want to go there."

    Did the Jews REALLY have a choice to accept or reject their
    Messiah? Or did God force them into what He knew would happen?
     
  16. rjprince

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    Carl,

    Briefly looked. Plan to look more later. Rosenthal did a pretty good job on his presentation of the pre-wrath idea. His is the best I have seen for any other than a pretrib position. I was not convinced. I am still not convinced. I remain pre-trib.

    Would suggest Waalvoord's "Rapture Question".
     
  17. Primitive Baptist

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    We must assume that there is a gap between the sixty-nine weeks and the seventieth week if what Gabriel prophesied to Daniel did not indeed happen. That is, of course, if we want to maintain the integrity of Scripture.

    Remember, God is sovereign. What may seem like a conditionality to us, is not a conditionality to God because all things are integrated into His sovereign purpose. As far as the establishing of the kingdom being conditional, read what Zechariah wrote: "And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both. And the crowns shall be to Helem, and to Tobijah, and to Jedaiah, and to Hen the son of Zephaniah, for a memorial in the temple of the LORD. And they that are far off shall come and build in the temple of the LORD, and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you. AND THIS SHALL COME TO PASS, IF YE WILL DILIGENTLY OBEY THE VOICE OF THE LORD YOUR GOD." -Zechariah 6:12-15
     
  18. Primitive Baptist

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    Now, answer my question. When did Jesus make a seven-year covenant with anybody? I posted that but have never received an answer.
     
  19. carlaimpinge

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    RJ,

    I have all the books by the prewrath folks. I wasn't impressed with Rosey when it first came out (1990). Vankampen and Nigro's aren't any better. They use a lot of scripture, wrongly; while "correcting by retranslation" to teach their points. Although they profess their non-scholarship, they PULL OUT "education" every time they need to do so. I have Walvoords' books also.

    Yes, if you would like, we could discuss the 70 weeks perspective. I came up with that chart a while back. That's the ONLY way I know to reconcile those things biblically.

    In Christ Jesus,
    Carl
     
  20. Grasshopper

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    14
    I don't think this proves a conditional Kingdom. Verse 15 is the key to when this was to occur. It seems clear verse 15 refers to the Gentiles coming into the Church. This puts it in the 1st century. Here are what some commentaries say:

    Adam Clarke

    Verse 15. And they that are far off shall come

    The Gentiles shall come to the Saviour of the world; and build-become a part of this new temple; for they, as living stones, shall become a holy temple, a habitation of God through the Spirit.

    Coffman Commentaries on the Old and New Testament

    Verse 15
    And they that are far off shall come and build in the temple of Jehovah; and ye shall know that Jehovah of hosts hath sent me unto you. And [this] shall come to pass, if ye will diligently obey the voice of Jehovah your God.

    They that are far off…

    If there is an expression in the entire Old Testament that means Gentiles, it is this one, being exactly the terminology used by the Holy Spirit on Pentecost when Peter announced the gospel as being for them that are afar off (Acts 2:39), thus placing a divine seal upon this whole revelation and certifying it as a prophecy of the times of the Messiah and of the coming of the Gentiles into the church of God. The ones that were far off were those not included with Israel in the covenant. They were the nations, or Gentiles of the world. In the new era, however, even the Gentiles would be admitted to fellowship with God.

    If ye will diligently obey…

    Neither the future building of the true temple of God as the church of Jesus Christ, nor the glorious Advent of Him who would build it, was doubtful in the slightest degree. All that was promised would be accomplished with or without Israel's participation; but the persons who would participate in the new order, or have anything at all to do with the true kingdom of God, depended upon an obedient spirit in the participants. The vast majority of secular Israel would have nothing of a spiritual kingdom; but the holy apostles constituting the righteous remnant of the true Israel would hail the Messiah when He came, worship Him as God, rally together after His crucifixion and resurrection, and then go forth into all the world shouting, He is risen, sealing their testimony with their blood, and establishing the church of Christ throughout all the world for millenniums of time!

    John Gill

    And they [that are] afar off shall come…
    .
    Into the temple; not the material temple; nor is this a prophecy which was fulfilled in Herod, a stranger, repairing that, as Kimchi suggests; but into the spiritual temple, the church; and is a prophecy of the calling of the Gentiles, who are said to be "afar off", (Ephesians 2:12,13) , from God; from having his image on them; from subjection to his law; from the knowledge and fear of him; and from communion with him: from Christ; from the knowledge of his person, righteousness, and salvation by him; from love to him, faith in him, and fellowship with him; from the Spirit of God, and from the people of God, and from any solid hope of eternal life: now these being called by grace, and brought to Christ under the drawings of the Father's love, shall come to his church, and join themselves to his people:

    and build in the temple of the Lord;

    upon the foundation Christ; and be useful in building up others, either by private conversation, or by public preaching the word; it is not said, they shall "build the temple of the Lord"; that is Christ's work; but "build in" it:

    and ye shall know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto you;

    that is, the Prophet Zechariah, who was sent to the Jews to declare these things to them; or, as the Targum adds, "to prophesy unto you": which they would fully know, and be assured of, when these things should have their accomplishment:

    and [this] shall come to pass, if ye will diligently obey the voice of the Lord your God;

    not that the fulfilment of the above predictions depended upon their obedience; but when they should in the latter day obey the Gospel of Christ, or "the word of the Lord" their "God", as the Targum paraphrases it; then this would come to pass, that they should know that the prophet had his mission from the Lord.


    As I stated earlier, Jesus came to finish Old Covenant business. He came to bring the New Covenant during the last 7 years. The context of Daniel's 70 weeks is verse 24: Old Covenant Jews and Jerusalem. Jesus brought His message to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.( Matt 15:24). He ministered for 3 and 1/2 years then was crucified. His disciples then continued with the message to the House Of Israel.(Matt 10:5). It was after the Disciples preached to the Jews in the last 3 and 1/2 years that ended the 70th week. Then the Gospel was brought to the Gentiles. It was probably after the stoning of Steven. (Acts 8:4).

    The 7 years were also the time of putting the two sticks together (Ez. 37:17.) I believe this is what Paul refers to in Eph. 2:11-14.
     

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