David Barton - getting the comeuppance he deserves

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by preachinjesus, Aug 9, 2012.

  1. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
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    So if you've been following some of the minor league press from World and Christianity Today you've probably heard that David Barton, the founder of Wallbuilders, is getting smoked by a lot of actual historians for his latest book.

    Essentially: Barton's poor history is finally getting called into account by historians Christians believe (that is, their own.) His dramatic overstatements, general unfamiliarity with historical dates, and problematic interpretations found in Jefferson Lies, his latest book, are being rebuked.

    If you want to read up on it go:
    http://www.worldmag.com/webextra/19820
    http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/08/08/david-bartons-errors/
    http://www.npr.org/2012/08/08/157777697/cue-the-tape-how-david-barton-sees-the-world


    I'm not at all surprised that he's being found out for the charlatan that he is. Frankly it was only a matter of time. I remember being invited with a group of other ministers from our area to a luncheon where he presented a bunch of gobbly-gook he called American history. Since I have a PhD in history (it is historical theology...that counts though) I asked him a couple questions about issues in his presentation. Let's just say I didn't answers and wasn't invited to future events.

    Barton is a hack. He doesn't have any legitimate basis for writing and his research is bunk. He's getting the academic butt-kicking he deserves for maligning so many and falsely evidencing early colonial Chrisitanity. Agendas in history are never a good thing and are always found out.

    So, what say ye venerable members of BB? What do you think about Barton and his fellow "Wall Builders?" How do you find Barton?


    Oh and it looks like his publisher is recalling his book: http://online.worldmag.com/2012/08/09/thomas-nelson-pulls-barton-book-on-jefferson/
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    How toyu rreferring to where he ACCURANTLY reflects that most of the founding fathers, and many afterwards, held to this nation being founded on christian morals, and that the doctrine of jesus was to be promoted in schools and society in general?
     
  3. preachinjesus

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    What in the sweet name of Jesus are you asking here? It makes no sense. :BangHead:
     
  4. Yeshua1

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    was just asking if the person that you listed was same historian that actually has recorded in an accurate fashion just how America was founded/based upon the Christian faith, and the founders expected us to stay firmly on jesus as our rock, and even have Christianity in public schhols, and throughout our society!

    FAR cry from where it is now, as America now has officially kicked jesus out of schools, government, and out of many churches, sad to say!
     
  5. mont974x4

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    He is. And it is no surprise that liberal elitists are angry about it and think they have him trapped.
     
  6. Yeshua1

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    To show their mindset, have heard ACLU spokespeople admit the Govt did support Christianity, supported paying for bibles, taught it in schools etc

    But say the founding fathers were wrong to allow for those things, as if the writers of the Constitution did not know they were violating own selves!

    they would be same crowd that would say jesus was wrong, for he did not know how to be more religiously 'tolerant"
     
  7. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
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    Did you read the links?

    Why does this matter?

    To add: I don't know how one accurately records something that never happened.

    This has nothing to do with the OP. Please stay on topic.
     
  8. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O.
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    I posted this less than a month ago. 7-22-12 Someone, I think go2church said that people were gullible and mentioned David Barton.

    I said......

     
  9. Yeshua1

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    Would say the founders were a mixture of mainly Christians/Deists/Free masons , but that all would agree that the nation was founded upon the morality in the Bible. especiallythe NT, and would have wriiten us to keep prayers and bible reading in schools, and the name of jesus throughout our culture/society!
     
  10. preachinjesus

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    1. Please formulate coherent/complete/editted sentences in this thread. :)

    2. No no no no no no...see this is the problem. The United States was not founded on the Bible. Though some independent schools might have had prayer and Bible reading it wasn't a universal, or widely shared practice at the founding. You can say a Judeo-Christian ethic might have undergirded some of the philosophies...what other options were there at this point?

    3. Frankly, looking at the moral lives of some of the founders it is ridiculous to say they were operating at a Judeo-Christian moarlity themselves. Why impute something they didn't themselve believe in?

    4. If the Bible is the basis for government, why isn't the Bible mentioned in hte Constitution?

    5. Your recollection sounds exactly like Barton's view and it has been almost thoroughly refuted. Unfortunately when we do engage in reasonable history and call into question the assumptions of many conservative evangelicals we get labeled "liberals" or "revisionists." Sadly it is actually the guys like Barton who are the revisionists.
     
  11. preachinjesus

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    This was my first inkling of the trouble behind his method. It is specious reasoning and terrible historiography. Barton's works often take quotes out of context and perform a kind of hermeneutical violence upon a text that robs it of its context and meaning.
     
  12. Gregory Perry Sr.

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    To watch or not to watch....That is the ?

    Since we are on the subject of David Barton and his honesty/reliability as a historian and maybe even as a Christian (we all know what the Bible says about liars....) I have a question. A friend of mine at church recently gave me David's 10 dvd set (the American Heritage series). Has anybody seen any of this and is it even worth watching? I haven't yet had the opportunity to view any of it. Just curious if I ought to even waste the time.

    Bro.Greg
     
  13. Yeshua1

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    Do yuo disagree with the basic premise that the founders meant us to remain a society and culture based upont he bible and its teachings, and to have jesus promoted in the "public square?"
     
  14. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
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    I disagree completely. I disagree that this is a "basic premise."

    This country was created (go read the Federalist papers for starters) to ensure personal liberty from tyranny and oppression (which often came from religious/Christian persecution.) This isn't to say that the founders weren't Christian or didn't have faith. Some of them were and did practice a vibrant Christianity. However, they constructed their government in such a way that it kept the church and state in separate spheres of control so that while they can inform each other they cannot control each other.

    They did not create this country to be a theocratic state. That much is clear. They intended on creatng a constitutional republic where leaders were elected by their people without government controlled lithmus tests so they could represent their people as they saw fit in a simple federal government with more power given to the individual states than retained by the federal government.

    This is not explicitly Christian, it is not opposed to Christianity. This is to be a land of diversity, religious pluralism, and a place where someone can start anew and, by their own power, raise themselves up to be self-sustaining.

    If Jesus is promoted in the public square it is because of free speech and free exercise. But the Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Jew, and other religions can also promote their beliefs in this country.
     
  15. new

    new
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  16. Yeshua1

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    That is the traditional liberal/ACLU spiel though!
    The founders did base their republic upon themoral standards contained in the Bible, and DID seek to promote Christianity and the teachings/morals of Christ as to be in culture/society!

    NO doubt they would have promoted keeping Giod in schools, by prayers and bible reading, as their view was that other religions were permitted, but Christianity preferred!
     
  17. new

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    So when folks like Justin Taylor from The Gospel Coalition and Gregg Frazer from MacArthur's Master's College condemn the book, is that also "traditional liberal/ACLU spiel"?
     
  18. humblethinker

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    Preachinjesus, you posted

    "Originally Posted by JesusFan/DaChaser1/Yeshua1"

    are you claiming that this fellow baptist board member is actually a trinity of three members? ;-)
     
  19. Yeshua1

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    Its them taking the line of the liberals , yes!
     
  20. Martin

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    Allow me to start this post with some background about myself. I am a full-time history instructor at a community college where I teach classes in early American History, African-American History, Native American History, and American Religious History. I hold a Master of Arts degree in History. Most importantly, I am also a Bible believing, conservative, evangelical.

    ==I am aware of Barton's new book and, like many historians, I have serious concerns about some of the claims that have been made in connection with the book. However since I have not taken time to read the book I think it would be unfair for me to comment further on it.

    ==This is nothing new. Like you, I am not aware of any major historian who takes Barton seriously. Mr. Barton's "history" has been promoted by Glen Beck (formerly of Fox News), TBN, and various pastors. The problem, of course, is that none of the people I have seen promote him are qualified as historians.

    ==Like you I believe that we need to get history "right" and that means being fair to all the evidence. That is where I part from Mr. Barton's work. In my opinion, Mr. Barton's work tends to be overly one-sided. He tends to focus on the information he likes while leaving out the points that he does not like.

    ==Of course a PhD in Historical Theology makes you an historian. I would love to get my PhD in Historical Theology or Early American History. Sadly, that will probably never happen.

    ==Amen.
     

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