David Cloud and Catholicism

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Bro. Curtis, Dec 4, 2002.

  1. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis
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    I'm hearing people accuse David Cloud of being wrong in his catholic church pages. I know there are folks who don't like him, but I am very interested to see somebody point out something concrete that he has been wrong about. I promise I will read what is put up here.

    Serious posts only, please. Anybody can call him names, but I want to see something real, where he is in error, and his false teachings exposed, dealing with the catholic church.

    Thank you, in advance.
     
  2. maznia

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    Here are a few things from Brother Cloud’s website:

    Rome blasphemes the Lord Jesus Christ by exalting the pope and Mary and the saints and the priesthood to a mediatorial position between God and men. Rome testifies that salvation is through the sacrifice of Christ, but it denies Christ's sacrifice by claiming that Christ is resacrificed daily in its abominable mass.

    Response: Two problems here. First, Roman Catholicism does not believe that the Pope, Mary, or priests are mediators between God and Man. Only Jesus is. They do play a role in intercession to the one mediator (Jesus), but they do not take his place or “exhalt” into that position.

    Also, Roman Catholicism does not teach that Jesus is resacrificed daily. Rather, the Mass is a “re-presenting” of the one sacrifice, once offered. There is a difference.

    Brother Cloud goes on: The Roman Catholic Church worships Jesus, but it is not the Jesus of the Bible. The Catholic Jesus is the wafer Jesus which is sacrificed repeatedly on Roman altars.

    Response: Again, not so. See above.

    Brother Cloud: the papacy, through its blasphemous claims and sacramental gospel, has led multitudes to eternal Hell.

    Response: Being that Brother Cloud has not been to hell yet himself, I cannot see how he can make such a claim. Regardless, the statement is inflammatory.

    Brother Cloud: THE POPE HAS NOT CONFESSED THE BLOODY AND HORRIBLE 600-YEAR INQUISITION AGAINST HUMBLE BIBLE-BELIEVING SAINTS

    Response: Brother Cloud constantly brings up things like the Inquisition and harps on the Pope’s so-called phony apologies. While these events did happen, they also happened centuries ago. There hasn’t been an Inquisition for centuries, and to say there will be again at the hands of Rome is inflammatory and unfair to the Catholics of today. To constantly harp on the past never allows anyone to move forward into the future.

    Brother Curtis, I do not despise Brother Cloud or anything. I need to believe that he is sincere in his beliefs, but the problem is that he is two things: he is inaccurate, and he is inflammatory. In my experience, his writings got me so riled up that I actually HATED Roman Catholicism and the people in that church. I have since seen the error of my ways and no longer read David Cloud’s hate (and yes, it is hate because it is a false message intended to rile up negative emotions). There are more examples of his inaccuracies, but I will stop now. Do this: read his material, then read Karl Keating’s materials at www.catholic.com. If one is going to critique Roman Catholicism, it is best to get it from source itself.

    In Christ,
    Stefan Maznia
     
  3. jimslade

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    The pope is the antichrist. He sets himself up as someone who can forgive sins but only God can.
    The roman catholics are canibals because they believe that they are eating of the body of Christ when they have mass. People need to spend time learning the teachings of Rome and then they will realize that any true christian cannot remain in the catholic church and be trully BORN-AGAIN.
     
  4. Johnv

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    The pope is the antichrist.
    In your opinion.

    He sets himself up as someone who can forgive sins but only God can.
    The Bible is clear that we have the power to forgive sins:

    Mathew 6:14,15- For if you forgive men when they sin against you ,your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

    John 20:21-23 Jesus said to [his disciples], "...As the Father has sent me, even so I send you... Receive the Holy Spirit... If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

    The roman catholics are canibals because they believe that they are eating of the body of Christ when they have mass.
    If that is so, then the last supper is cannibalism as well:
    "The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, 'This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.' In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.'"
    If you understood Catholicism, you'd know that they believe that Jesus Christ is physically present in the Sacrament of Communion (which is not just a Roman Catholic Sacrament).

    People need to spend time learning the teachings of Rome and then they will realize that any true christian cannot remain in the catholic church and be trully BORN-AGAIN.

    Clearly, this very statement shows that, as you call others to become learned, so would I suggest to you to become learned as well, unless you think you know it all already. While Catholic DOctrine is far from perfect and does, in my opinion, contain errors from how I interpret the NT, there can be no arguemtn to the fact that, whether one is Catholic, Baptist, or the anything in between, anyone who's born again receives the gift of salvation.
     
  5. Bro. Curtis

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    Originally posted by maznia


    Response: Two problems here. First, Roman Catholicism does not believe that the Pope, Mary, or priests are mediators between God and Man. Only Jesus is. They do play a role in intercession to the one mediator (Jesus), but they do not take his place or “exhalt” into that position.


    Mary is called “co-redemptrix”. Also, “mother of God” She plays no part in salvation, or our walk with God, according to the Bible.


    Also, Roman Catholicism does not teach that Jesus is resacrificed daily. Rather, the Mass is a “re-presenting” of the one sacrifice, once offered. There is a difference.


    The claim by the RCC is that Jesus is present in the eucharist. A “real presence”. That is not biblical.


    Being that Brother Cloud has not been to hell yet himself, I cannot see how he can make such a claim. Regardless, the statement is inflammatory.


    This one I’ll give you.


    Response: Brother Cloud constantly brings up things like the Inquisition and harps on the Pope’s so-called phony apologies. While these events did happen, they also happened centuries ago. There hasn’t been an Inquisition for centuries, and to say there will be again at the hands of Rome is inflammatory and unfair to the Catholics of today. To constantly harp on the past never allows anyone to move forward into the future.


    But we see a new sort of nasty event with the latest pedophile problems. The latest rub is that the archdiocese in Boston is now filing chapter 11 bankruptcy, to prevent further lawsuits. There was definately a problem with pedophile priests being moved from parish to parish, instead of being brought up on charges. The RCC apologies seem empty. This goes right along with the history of intimidation by the RCC.

    I do appreciate your efforts here. I know Brother Cloud, have met him, and talked at length. He is not a hateful man. He has shared his hate mail with me, and I have seen the struggles he has. He feels he has been called of God to expose the lies, and while it hasn’t made him many friends, he has stuck with it. I don’t agree with everything he says, but I applaud him for his biblical stance.

    Again, thank you. I look forward to more conversations with you.
     
  6. jimslade

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    John V Ignorance of doctrines is no excuse. You have NO idea what you are talking about!!!!!

    Don't e uninformed STUDY then you will Know what the roman catholic church is all about. I doubt very much that you are a BAPTIST. Anyone can claim to be anything on a B/B.
     
  7. Johnv

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    Is that the best you can do? You forgot to accuse me of not being a Christian.

    As for Catholicism, I DO know what I'm talking about, since I grew up Catholic. I also got saved in the Catholic Church and remained there for several years. Not just me, but all of my friends who were Catholic accepted Christ in the RCC. Some are still practicing, some aren't.

    No doubt, you'll either tell me that my years speant in the RCC have clouded my judgement, or you'll tell me that I must not have been exposed to the "real" Catholic Church, both of which will be untrue statements. In any event, this will not be a case of you and I disagreeing. This will be a case of you considering me a bad Christian or bad Baptist, since your tone seems to reflect that your views are the ones I should hold a standard to.
     
  8. jimslade

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    John V
    Why did you leave the catholic church if you think they are christians?
     
  9. Johnv

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    My reasons for leaving the RCC had nothing to do with doctrine. Other than that, it's personal.
     
  10. jimslade

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    John V
    I as a Christian I have decided that you have sinned against me in your attitude and furthermore I am not going to forgive you. That means your sin will never be forgiven as per your doctrine on forgiveness,re post. NONSENCE!!!!
    God is the only one who can forgive SIN. Your seperation from the RCC is not yet complete. I do not doubt your salvation but your doctrines are HERESY. Forget your past and move on. If your friends are still in the RCC I'm sorry but I doubt there salvation.

    [ December 09, 2002, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: jimslade ]
     
  11. Bugman

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    I have many, many problems with the Catholic Church. My first and biggest one is that they are not Christians. A Christian is a person who is saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, a Catholic on the otherhand believes they are saved by grace through faith with works in Christ. So the faith the RCC has is in it's works and no matter how much you believe that Christ is the son of God if you put your faith in your own works you are not getting to heaven.

    Bryan
     
  12. HankD

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    I used to post quite a bit here at BB but have had to limit my participation because of other responsiblities and also because of the spirit so often displayed here (not that I am anyone special). It's difficult to handle some of the responses as I'm sure its difficult for some Catholics to hear what I have had to say.

    Trying to be kind and and also correct some of the outrageous heresies (IMO) of the RCC is difficult.

    To sum up their greatest deception I would point to something I call RCC double-speak (borrowed from Orwell's 1984). This is a deception (IMO) of the RCC to redefine words so that they are able to excuse themselves and their captives from the sin they are committing. Example: The difference between a Catholic kneeling before an image of Mary in the position of worship, addressing her as if she could hear them and the all other millions simultaneously praying to her and giving petition to her (omnipresent), giving her praise with words of worship "hail holy queen... etc). This is hyperdulia while the same prayer to Jesus is called latria. The RCC makes a distinction... The question I would ask is does God?

    Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    Then we see (and many Baptist are deeply offended by) such titles of Mary as "The mediatrix of all graces" and "The co-remptrix with Christ" (now before the Pope for pronouncement as binding on all Catholics).

    Yet Jesus said:
    John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    And Peter (presumably the first Pope) said:
    Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name (Jesus) under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

    We are told that the RCC titles of mediatrix and Co-redemptrix do not violate these Scriptures.

    Personally I don't see that its possible but how can I say that I believe that these dogma are both heresy and possibly blasphemy in a kind way?

    I can't, but its an honest assessment of my belief in relationship to the RCC Marian dogma.

    So, (and I know you can't respond here in this thread) to all Catholics, the Baptist distinction of Soul Liberty promote the idea that all are free to worship in any way they please without the fear of persecution or bloodshed. This the RCC did not afford the Waldenses, Anabaptists, Huegenots, Albigenses and hundreds of thousands (perhaps millions) of other non-Catholics they slaughtered in the name of God.
    Some say, well times were different then...
    Murder is murder and its source and those who do this has always been the same from age to age.

    There is no kind way to say this about the fruit of those who perpetrated this slaughter:

    John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    Please think again about your Church and its undeniably historic deeds if not its doctrine:

    Matthew 7:
    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
    24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock.

    2 Corinthians
    16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
    18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

    HankD

    [ December 09, 2002, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]
     
  13. Bugman

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    I stated that Catholics "believe" that these works are "in Christ", that view however is unbiblical as it puts works into the justification process.

    Anyone who believes that works plays any part in salvation does not know the grace of God.

    Bryan
     
  14. Pastor Larry

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    I believe you missed the point of the RCC teaching on John 20:23 where men forgive sins. They have misunderstood that verse and used it to teach that man forgives when indeed, as you have rightly said, only God forgives. Unfortunately, your church disagress.

    If you read more carefully, you will see that the poster explicitly did not question his salvation. As it is, it appears you responded out of emotion rather than carefully reading the post that you quoted.

    This is not about hard hearts, or putting people down. It is about biblical doctrine. Deleting your post will prove nothing. It will simply show that the board rules that you have flagrantly violated have been enforced.
     
  15. Dr. Bob

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    We have a forum for "Other Religions" that allows open discussion of the merits of the RCC religious system v Bible Christianity. I am closing this thread and ask you to take any such discussion to that location.

    The bitter rancor and taunting here is not fit for the "general" consumption. Folks, a lot of people who are unsaved come by and the "general" forum is where they land first.

    I cannot sit idly by and allow the Gospel message to be clouded by the pro/con debates over a denomination. Thank you.
     

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