Day Of Pentecost - What Actually Happened?

All the above is dispensational eisegesis. The first and most egregious error is the statement that there are two Gospels. The Apostle Paul tells us in Galatians 1:6-9

6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

The Apostle Paul also tells us in Romans 1:15,16 just what constitutes the Gospel. Notice that the Gospel is for both Jew and Gentile. This will be significant when we see what Paul preached after he reached Rome, that is after this letter was written.

15. So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

In the opening passage of the Gospel of Mark we read:

Mark 1:1. The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

Now was Mark, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, talking about the same Gospel of Jesus Christ that Paul defined above or a different Gospel? The answer is obvious!

Later we read in Mark 1:14, 15:

14. Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15. And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Was Jesus preaching another Gospel? He was preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God. But Mark has already told us that he, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, is writing about the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Obviously the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Gospel of the Kingdom of God are the same Gospel or we cannot believe Scripture.

We look once again at the preaching of the Apostle Paul. Recall that in his letter to Rome which preceded his visit he defined the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If we turn to Acts 28:25-31.

25. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26. Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27. For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
29. And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
30. And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
31. Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

The Apostle was preaching the kingdom of God and the Lord Jesus Christ. This after he had warned the Galatians about a false Gospel, after he had told the Church at Rome precisely what constituted the Gospel. Now as for the statement that Peter "preached exclusively the gospel of the kingdom to the Jews", what did Peter preach?

Acts 2:38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Sounds like the same Gospel Paul preached to the Gentiles. The whole truth of the matter is:

1. That there is only one Gospel, there has always been only one gospel, and that Gospel was for both Jew and Gentile; to claim otherwise is heretical.

2. That there was no offer of an earthly kingdom to the Jews.

3. That there is no Scripture to support a so-called pre trib removal of the Church.

The primary event of Pentecost was the empowerment of the Church with the Holy Spirit.

And by the way I would consider the response of Jesus Christ to his disciples regarding restoration of the kingdom a rebuke, similar to the rebuke of Job by God.

Acts 1:6-8
6. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7. And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Bluntly what Jesus Christ is saying is "its none of your business". Also notice in verse 8 He tells what will transpire at Pentecost.

 

Since we are currently in the so-called millennium I don't believe that 144,000 Jews will preach anything. Just where in Revelation does it say these preached the gospel of the kingdom? The only Gospel that is mentioned in Revelation is the everlasting Gospel:

Revelation 14:6. And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.

And that was preached to: them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people which is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

Scripture? Scripture? Scripture, that is if there is any?

 

Can you expound more what this means? Are you saying there are 13 Apostles?

How are you separating the Church from the Kingdom? How can one get to the kingdom without the Church?

 

Well, I'm not BibleTalk, but will take a stab at this one, anyway.

Several more than the 13 you are alluding to are identified in Scripture as apostles!
1. "The Twelve" including Judas are called Apostles. ().

2. Matthias is included in Scripture among "The Twelve." (Ac. 6:2)

3. Paul, obviously. (Ac. 14:14)

4. Barnabas. (Ac. 14:14) It is interesting, to say the least, that the first Biblical mention of Paul as an apostle, is in the same verse that identifies Barnabas as an apostle.

5. James, the Lord's brother, a.k.a. in the early church as James, the Just, who became a primary leader in the Jerusalem church, and is the author of the Epistle of James. (Gal. 1:19)

6. Andronicus - said by Paul, in Rom. 16:7 to be "outstanding among the apostles" along with

7. Junias or Junia - Junia?? That's a woman's name! "Gasp!" A Woman as an Apostle?? "Say it isn't so, Ethel!" That sure would toss a big 'monkey-wrench' into a lot of 'Baptist Theology', hunh??

8. Epaphroditus - "your Apostle"- (Phil'p. 2:25- WYC, TYN, COV, BIS, D/R, YLT, AMP, TNT, WEB) Amazing! The WYC got this one right six and a quarter centuries ago. So did all the early English translators, including, Tyndale, Rogers, Coverdale, Wittingham, et al, including the Douay-Rheims until the Geneva, of Beza.

9. Jesus. (Heb. 3:1) Maybe it's just me, but I would consider Him to be pretty important. :thumbs:

There are another three or four that I believe can be Biblically identified as Apostles, based on multiple Scriptural references, including Timothy, Luke, and Silas.

And for a bit more information, I would recommend the books on this subject by Drs. Herbert Lockyear and W. Stuart MacBirnie, although I think both may be out of print, now.

The distinction, I make in these is definitive and/or historical, not speculative. There was no church as the body of Christ, in the OT. Yet people were saved then, just as you or I today, by faith in God. (Gen. 15:6, Rom. 4:1-8) One saved today does become an integral part of the church. And the body of Christ is certainly an integral part of the Kingdom of God. It's just not the only part, Biblically.

Gotta' run.

Ed

 

You probably know I disagree but here are my reason's why...

Yes, Christ is the only way of salvation. However, the vehicle he built by which his way was instituted to man was his Church.

Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


There is no parallel Gospel and there is no Gospel to the Church and a Gospel to Israel. There is only one Gospel and one way to the kingdom which is the Church. OT Israel was saved by a froward looking faith in the coming messiah. Christ is that messiah and it is only by faith in Him can one be saved. And it is that confession of faith in Christ that admits you into the Church. There is no other way and there is no other Gospel.

I don't think I should have to individually address what you call differences because I think we can find agreement at a higher level. The Church and the Gospel didn't begin with the NT. Just as you can see Christ in the OT, the Church is likewise there...

Ac 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,

However, not all of Israel accepted the messiah when he came. He came unto his own and his own received him not. He was rejected of his own. Not all, but some... Those who rejected Christ were pruned or broken off the tree and we the Gentiles were grafted in.

Ro 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

So because of that, we are joint heirs to receive the SAME promise that was given to the seed of Abraham. There is no Israel and the Church. There is no Jew and Gentile. We are all one in Christ and heirs of the promise to Abraham.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

I guess I should have specified, what I was referring to was;

Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

I have no problem with OT salvation but I want to make sure we agree, anyone who is saved in this day and age must belong to the Church. Is that a fair statement?

 

Israel rejected God speaking "DIRECTLY" to them at Mt Sinai and again when Jesus came.

Ex 20:19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

Heb 1:1 God, spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

The "COMFORTER" is the Holy "GHOST OF JESUS" still speaking to those who have ears to hear.

Israel never had a "Comforter".

Ec 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

De 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain,

If one drink the same "WATER" Jesus gave the woman at the well, then Jesus turns the "WATER" into "WINE", one will get "DRUNK" on the Holy Spirit, that is be filled with the spirit so happy people will think they are drunk.

And like a drunk, you're not in control of your body, the spirit is in control, they were speaking in languages they had never been taught.

I'm sure each of them were as amazed as the people who heard them.

I wonder how many people have experienced this being drunk on the spirit????

 

I guess that eliminates Jesus from being one of these 12, since these are 12 of His apostles.

What this does not do, however, is eliminate any other of those who are identified as "Apostle" in Scripture, or even any who may have the gift of apostle, and are not mentioned on the pages of Scripture. As the church is concerned, "apostle" is a spiritual gift, as contrasted to a 'church' office, along the same line as such as 'teacher', 'spiritual discernment', ministering, or evangelist, to name four. Is this gift, a 'permanent' one or a 'temporary' one, such as that of prophecy, speaking in languages, and knowledge? These are the three that Scripture identifies, as having some sort of ending to them, (I Cor. 13) although one might conclude 'interpretation' also fits this framework, simply because if no one is utilizing the gift of speaking in an 'unlearned' language, there would be no reason to 'interpret' a language that is not being spoken. However, one might also make the argument that one with this gift, might be useful where one might speak in a 'non-miraculous' manner, in their own native language. As Scripture does not expressly speak to this, neither shall I attempt to be dogmatic in any manner, either.

I would offer that a much better, and potentially less confusing statement would be that

"Anyone who is saved in this day and age does belong to the church."

The way you have phrased it might be misconstrued that one must belong to the church before one is saved. Not the case, Being 'baptized' into the church; baptized into Christ, and baptized into the death of Christ (none of the three of which, incidentally are exactly the same thing), logically are all a 'result' of salvation, when one has believed in/on Christ, although these 'non-experiential' events happen simultaneously when one believes.

Gott'a run. Church time.

Ed

 

Wasn't one of the requirement to be classified as an "Apostle" was to have seen Jesus "IN PERSON",

Didn't Paul say he was the "LAST"???

1Co 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

 

Agreed... My question was more would the 12th be Mathias or Paul?

Agreed... I was just making sure we were on the same page of the song book... :thumbs:

 

Acts 2:37"Now when they heard this they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, 'Brethren, what shall we do?' (38)And Peter said to them, 'Repent...."(41) So then, those who had recieved his word were baptized; and there were added that day about 3,000 souls".

They rejected the offer? Looks like Peter preached a sermon and 3,000 Jews were saved. Does scripture ever record that Paul preached a sermon and 3,000 people were saved? That doesn't look like "they rejected the offer" so God turned to the Gentiles.

That looks like Holy Spirit moving upon people to bring them to salvation, according to God's plan.

peace to youraying:

 

Never heard the Comforter referred to as is the Holy "GHOST OF JESUS", whatever that is. The Comforter is God the Holy Spirit.

 

Right on target!:thumbs: