Dead Believers

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Mar 26, 2009.

  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
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    I could not respond to this post without derailing the thread. It needs a thread of its own.



    HP: Are there any dead Christians on this board that would like to help DHK and tell us how being made ‘alive unto Christ’ can in reality be synonymous with being dead spiritually? I wonder how one that is not saved is dead, yet one saved can be dead as well??

    I am certain DHK will welcome all the help he can get on this one. :thumbs:


     
  2. DHK

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    Psalms 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:
    --Sin separates the believer from God. God won't hear the believer.

    Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
    --Written to believing Israel.
     
  3. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    A dead unbeliever we have come to know as one that cannot do anything but sin and that continually. What can a 'dead believer' do DHK?
     
  4. DHK

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    Are you perfect and sinless HP?
    When you sin, what do you do?
    What happens when you don't confess your sin right away?
    As long as you do not confess that sin right away you are dead--that is spiritually separated from God.
    So, I ask you, what can you do as a dead believer, as long as your sin remains unconfessed. You can answer your own question.
     
  5. webdog

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    This is the first I have ever heard of a believer being separated from God :eek:

    I don't know about you, but I am spiritually ALIVE, even when I sin! Jesus said He would never leave nor forsake me...and there was no asterisk connected.
     
  6. JSM17

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    I agree that 1 John is written to believers and just for the recorded there are no epistles written to non -believers.

    But when you look at 1 John in the context of the verse you quoted, it refers to those who do confess are walking in the light.

    Would you say that if the dead believer stopped confessing his sins would he still be walking in the light and would the blood continue to cleanse him?

    If it doesn't then how can we say that a dead believer's salvation is not effected?

    1 John 1:5-10
    This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.

    6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;

    7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

    8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

    9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
    NASU


    I do not think you can say a dead believer is still in a saving relationship with God. I do not see this in scripture and because of the OSAS doctrine you must put the clause in "Our salvation is not lost".

    This is the first time I have ever heard this phrase, "Dead believer".

    Just because we sin doea not mean that we are not walking in the light, to say that everytime you sin as a christian you are separated from God, then we would be separated from God all through the day. Dead, alive, dead, alive, dead, alive. When we stop confessing our sin, we choose to no longer walk in the light, we then are choosing darkness, this is when separation occurs
     
    #6 JSM17, Mar 26, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 26, 2009
  7. DHK

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    Sin separates the believer from God.
    His fellowship with God is no longer what it ought to be; it needs to be destroyed. Thus John wrote: "If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    That unrighteousness will separate us from God, no?

    2 Corinthians 6:14... for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

    Sin separates us from God.
    Sin separates a child from a parent in the sense that all is not right until the wrong is corrected and the fellowship is restored.
     
  8. webdog

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    Scripture never uses spiritual death in relation to believers. Every time it is in reference to the lost. True, sin will affect the relationship between a child of God and the Father, but it does not separate us relationally. We still remain a child. My son doesn't cease being my son when he does something wrong. If it did, salvation ceases to be eternal.
     
  9. DHK

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    On the contrary. One must go by Scriptural definitions. The question is not whether one is a Christian or not. Rather what is the definition of "death"?
    Death is consistently defined in the Bible as "separation," whether applied to unbelievers or believers. Death = Separation. We cannot arbitrarily change the meanings of words to suit our theology. All the way through Scripture death means separation.

    Let's look at it more extensively this time.
    1. There is physical death or separation.
    James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
    --Death occurs when the spirit is separated from the body. Death is separation. This is physical death which we are all acquainted with.

    2. There is eternal death or eternal separation.
    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    --Notice the contrast Paul makes: eternal life is contrasted to death, meaning eternal death. Eternal death is eternal separation from God. Eternal life is to be with God for all eternity. Eternal death is to be separated from God for all eternity. Death is separation.

    3. There is spiritual death or separation for the unbeliever (before he dies or gets saved).
    Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
    --Paul says that these Ephesian believers were once dead. They are now alive, made alive through the Holy Spirit, but before then they were dead. How? They were spiritually dead. That is they were separated from Christ and would be separated from Christ until Christ would make them alive or bring them into communion with him.
    Every man has a spirit. The spirit isn't "dead" as in a corpse. It is dead as the spirit is spiritually inoperable until it is made operable or given life by the Holy Spirit. These believers were told that they were dead. That simply means that they were once separated from God in their unsaved state.

    4. There is spiritual death or separation for the believer.
    There is much Scripture that tells us that sin separates us from Christ.
    Keep in mind death is separation. That is the definition. So a believer can be dead to Christ if he is in sin. It is a loss of fellowship. This is what the first chapter of First John is all about.

    1 John 1:6-7 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
    --If we are saved we ought to be having fellowship with Christ. But if we are living in sin we may be saved, but our fellowship is broken, and we are only lying to ourselves.

    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
    --If our sins are confessed and we are walking in the light then we do have fellowship with Christ, and are not dead or separated from him.
    --How can we do that? The answer is given in verse 9.

    Psalm 66:18 tells us that sin can separate us from God. God does not hear our prayers if there is sin in our hearts. It separates us from God. Death is separation.

    Death is separation whether one is speaking of the believer or unbeliever.
     
  10. Tom Butler

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    I agree. Instead of using the word "relationship," maybe we should speak of "fellowship." As in the parent-child relationship, sin, misbehavior, will certainly affect the fellowship. In my Southern culture, we might say that "I'm in my father's doghouse." Or, "I'm on the outs with Dad."

    But he's still dad and I'm still his son.

    David, in Psalms 51, did not pray for God to restore his salvation after his sin with Bathsheba. He prayed that God would restore the "joy" of his salvation.
     
  11. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    I have to scratch my head on this one. How can something that has already been forgiven, and cast into the depths of the sea, separate one from God?? If it has been forgiven, it has been taken care of and God says that the sins that have been forgiven He does not even remember.

    So the picture is us in the palm of His hands, sin and all, with nothing separating us from God according to some, at one time or in one breath. Now are we to believe that sin separates us from God? Nothing can separate us from God was what I have been made to believe.....until now. Now sins seem to separate but it does not separate. DHK, stand still in one spot long enough for us to understand your position. Does sin separate us from God or not? Can something be and not be at the same time and in the same sense? Is there a compartment in God's hand that has "These souls are separated from Me" on the door or what?
     
    #11 Heavenly Pilgrim, Mar 27, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2009
  12. webdog

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    This has got to be the most unorthodox view of spiritual death I have ever come across. Is heresy too strong of a word to use in describing it? NO believer is spiritually dead! We are NEVER separated from God due to sin if Christ's blood covers us...He is the one who for a moment was forsaken...not us...ever! This has the Millenial Exclusion undertones to it!
     
  13. Thinkingstuff

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    Whats millenial exclusion? There are so many christian phrases out there its hard to keep up.
     
  14. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Webdog, I do not believe you called DHK’s beliefs heresy or him a heretic. Just the same, you are getting very close. :)

    First, I personally oppose the notion of calling another a heretic on a list such as this, one that invites those of differing opinions to join in reasonable debate, with the possible exception of those denying a literal heaven or hell, the Deity of Jesus Christ, and possibly a few others if we thought about it long and hard. Calling another a heretic, or the doctrines they hold as heresy, does nothing to add calm to the storm of opposing positions long enough for the truth to be evident in the hearts and minds of those honestly seeking truth. Such inflammatory words gender strife and hard feelings, not reasonable debate.

    I detest the remarks of heresy by DHK and all others ‘in this forum setting’ because it does not add to real evidence in supporting anyone’s idea of truth, and simply, more often that not, stands as a thinly veiled personal attack. There is a time and a place to call another’s beliefs heresy, but a debate form, inviting others of varying denominational beliefs to interact, is not the time or the place IMO. For instance, because I believe some of DHK’s beliefs are far from the truth or because he chooses to denote me as a heretic or my beliefs as heresy, this is no place for me to act in like manner and call his notions heresy. I personally desire to have a open and frank discussion without the name calling with all on this list. Name calling is supposed to be prohibited. Fewer words than ‘heresy’ insight more wicked and atrocious deeds by men calling themselves Christian.
     
  15. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: As I understand it basically is an idea that some, although called believers, will be excluded from the millennial reign due to sin in their lives.
    OK list, am I right or wrong?
     
  16. webdog

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    I wasn't accusing him of anything (not trying to get me banned, are you? :)), I was asking if heresy was too strong a word, as I know the BB has already deem ME heresy, with those who hold to it being banned here, and that doctrine teaches that a true believer can be separated from God in hell...what "dead believer" sounds exactly like.
     
  17. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: No way! I cannot think of one person, including DHK, I would desire to see banned on this list period. There may be at least one or so that I would like to see reinstated though. :1_grouphug:
     
  18. DeafPosttrib

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    I have something in my mind. I am thinking of plan to make new topic about millennial issue which relate with salvation.

    We should be aware that there are MANY baptists have different opinions what would happen to a unfaithful Christian at the judgment seat of Christ, just suffer loss of reward? Or what will unfaithful Christians DO during supposed millenial period?

    I am not bring up the purpose of 'millennial exclusion' debate as what many members were debate on this baptistboard 2 years ago. Several were banned from Baptistboard as members because of this.

    Early in my Christian life back in early 1990's. I used to believed that Christians who shall suffer lose the reward at the judgment seat of Christ, and also, I used to believe that Christians will NOT reign with Christ for 1000 years on earth. And also, I used to believed many unfaithful Christians will be punish or being "grounded" somewhere other place being excluded from reign on earth during 1000 years. By the way, I never, never believe in the doctrine of purgatory. Bible teaches us there are only two eternity destiny places - heaven and hell(then later join in lake of fire). But, I was do actual believed that unfaithful Christians will be suffering and weeping somewhere other place for 1000 years separate from Christ and his reign on earth.

    Honest, I did talked to my ex-deaf baptist pastor about it. He believed the same thing. Huh?

    You should be aware that there are LOT of Baptists have almost same common believe about judgment seat of Christ, what will happen to unfaithful Christians.

    So, we better be careful not focus on Joey Faust or Dr. Gary Whipple either, which relate with millennial exclusion.

    I am thinking of planning to make new topic about FOCUS on millennial(relates with premillennialism) and salvation issue at the judgment seat of Christ with verses.

    Let you know that, myself was pretrib, premill, and securist(OSAS) before in my early Christian life. Now, I am posttrib, amill, and conditional salvation. Why? Because I have been read and studying Bible deep lot for many years, and what I have been learned from God's Word caused my beliefs changed lot lately.

    Later I will have many important questions why they believe in that issue. And I will use many verses to prove them wrong, and why the Bible doesn't teach unconditional salvation, also, not teach on purgatory or millennial exclusion.

    Everyone need to understand salvation, judgment day, and our future eternity destiny where we will spend from the Bible. So, we would not get into confusion or misunderstanding God's Word. I believe that our future final eternity destiny is a MUST understand and very important to our souls, that we cannot afford to ignore it. Because Bible does have answer on our future final eternity destiny where we will spend after we die, and what will happen to our souls.

    Christ tells us, that we MUST to know the truth to make us FREE - John 8:32.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  19. DHK

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    Yes heresy is too strong a word for it. Get a hold of yourself. Think things through.
    First, define "death" for me. That is what I want you to do. Give me a Scriptural definition of death.
     
  20. OldRegular

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    You are absolutely correct webdog.
     

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