DEAD MEANS DEAD!

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Claudia_T, May 21, 2006.

  1. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T
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    Today many Christians believe that when a person dies he goes right to either Heaven or Hell, but is this Biblical?

    Man does not possess natural immortality of the soul. We are given the gift of immortality at the second coming of Christ and no sooner. Therefore the dead cannot go to heaven until the second coming of Christ when they arise out of their graves.

    "Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." 1 Cor. 15:51-53.

    What becomes of man's thoughts at death?
    "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." Ps. 146:4.

    Many Christians believe they can hold conversations with their dead relatives and ask for advice, but is this true?

    "For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Eccl. 9:5.

    If David's relatives wouldve tried to talk to him after his death, they'd of had a hard time doing that sice David was not in heaven, but rahter, he was in the grave ..

    "For David is not ascended into the heavens." Acts 2:34.

    What about you, have you thought all your life that people die and go straight to heaven or hell?

    Would you rather go by chuch tradition or by what the Bible says?
     
  2. EdSutton

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    Topic Title: Dead means dead:

    Well, Yeah- Duh! :rolleyes:

    But the question is, or at least would seem to be what does "dead" mean?

    Ed
     
  3. Claudia_T

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    It means that the dead person is in the grave awaiting the resurrection at the second coming of Christ.

    The "dead know not anything"... They are not aware of anything that is going on at all.
     
  4. Claudia_T

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    “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

    Can anyone answer why God would have people go to heaven when they die, then come to get them out of their graves at the second coming of Christ?
     
  5. JFox1

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    We resurrect because although the human soul or spirit is incredibly precious, it is not a person. A complete person is body, soul, and spirit. The resurrected body will be like Christ's glorious body, which will last forever.
     
  6. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
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    1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

    Hi Claudia,
    You are one that seems for the most part to be a stickler in following every jot and tittle. I am just curious what you think about this passage?
     
  7. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    The word 'dead' is indeed an interesting word. Some think that to be dead is dead, and that it is a no-brainer to understand that. I for one feel that might not be the case in all uses of the word.

    Some say that Scripture teaches that we were ‘dead in our trespasses and sins,’ and that is to be interpreted that it was ‘impossible’ for us to do anything other than sin. If we take that definition of ‘dead’, and apply it to being ‘dead indeed to sin’ as believers, would it be consistent and correct to conclude that it is impossible for believers to sin, just as being dead before we became believers is believed to imply that it was ‘impossible’ to do anything other than to sin?
     
  8. Gershom

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    What about the rich man and Lazarus? What about Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration? What about the thief on the cross? What about the martyrs whose souls cried out?
     
  9. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T
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    HP

    well I have to say thats interesting you didnt think was a "stickler" all this time till now when I bring up the false sunday sabbat
     
  10. Claudia_T

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    Moses upon the mount of transfiguration represented those who shall come forth from the grave at the resurrection of the just.

    Elijah, who had been translated to heaven without seeing death, represented those who will be living upon the earth at Christ's second coming.

    They are special cases.

    Lazarus and the rich man is merely a symbolic parable.

    I havent a clue what you mean by bringing up the theif on the cross
     
  11. Claudia_T

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    "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope." 1 Thess. 4:13 (1 Cor. 15:18, 20) (John 11:11-14).

    And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake." Dan. 12:2.
    How long will they sleep there?
    "So man lieth down, and riseth not, till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job. 14:12.


    "If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will wait, till my change come." Job 14:14.


    Jn:11:
    11: These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
    12: Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
    13: Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
    14: Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
     
  12. bapmom

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    Claudia,

    you really don't remember that Jesus told the thief on the cross "today you shall be with me in Paradise"?
     
  13. Claudia_T

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    "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope." 1 Thess. 4:13 (1 Cor. 15:18, 20) (John 11:11-14).


    "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake." Dan. 12:2.


    "So man lieth down, and riseth not, till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job. 14:12.

    "If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will wait, till my change come." Job 14:14.


    "If I wait, the grave is mine house; I have made my bed in the darkness." Job 17:13.


    "His sons come to honor, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them." Job 14:21.

    What becomes of man's thoughts at death?
    "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." Ps. 146:4.


    "For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Eccl. 9:5.


    "Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun." Ecc. 9:6.

    "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence." Ps. 115:17.


    "For in death there is no remembrance of thee." Ps. 6:5.

    "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust; for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead." Isa. 26:19.


    "As for me, I will behold Thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with Thy likeness." Ps. 17:15.


    "For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised; and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished." 1 Cor. 15:16-18.

    "For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first." 1 Thess. 4:16 (1 Cor. 15:23).
     
  14. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T
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    The Thief on the cross

    Jesus said to the thief: Today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise." Luke 23:43.


    How long after Christ's crucifixion, did His resurrection take place?
    "Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day." 1 Cor.15:3, 4.

    On the day of Jesus' resurrection He spoke to Mary...Note what He said..
    "Jesus saith unto her, Touch Me not; for I am not yet ascended to My Father." John 20:17.

    This was already the third day after Jesu had promised the thief yet Christ could say He had not been to Paradise since His crucifixion.


    What actually did the theif request:
    "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into Thy kingdom." Luke 23:42.

    Jesus says when He will take all of His people to heaven:
    "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." John 14:3.

    The problem here is that Jesus used that word "today" to give emphasis to His promise...

    Why did Christ use the word "today" in His answer to the thief?
    (ee Zech. 9:12 as an example of this)

    Jesus said: "Verily I say unto thee today" A simple change of the comma from before "today," placing it immediately after that word, solves the whole difficulty. The comma is of human invention.

    In other words Jesus was saying that TODAY he was telling him something...not that TODAY the thief would be with Him in paradise
     
  15. Claudia_T

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    It is important to understand this doctrine because the false doctrine of the dead going straight to heaven or hell and not being dead came from the Roman Catholic church and it is the very foundation of SPIRITUALSIM.

    It is why the Catholics think they can pray to dead saints and to the Virgin Mary
     
  16. Gershom

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    Who or what Moses represents in't the case. The fact is, Moses appeared on the Mount when, according to soul sleepers, he should have been sleeping.

    Symbolic or not, Jesus wasn't telling an untruth or a fairytale to make His point. He told us what happens at death.

    Jesus told the the malefactor that was crucified next to Him that he'd be with Him "today" in paradise. He wasn't saying, as you suggested in your reply, "I'm telling you today". Why would that be needful to say? As if he needed to know that!

    You skipped over the souls of the martyrs in Rev 6:9. If souls are supposed to sleep at death, someone forgot to tell these fellas (v.10).
     
  17. Claudia_T

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    about the martyrs whose souls cried out..

    That is just figurative languages like when Abel's blood cried out Genesis 4:10


    You need to gather together ALL the Bible texts about the subject and it is plain to see that the dead dont know anything at all and are in the grave asleep awaiting the resurrection


    1Cor:15:6: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

    1Cor:15:18: Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

    1Thes:4:13: But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

    1Thes:4:15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


    Acts:7:60: And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.


    Acts:13:36: For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:


    1Cor:11:30: For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

    1Cor:15:6: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

    1Cor:15:18: Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

    1Cor:15:51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

    Eph:5:14: Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

    1Thes:4:13: But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

    1Thes:4:14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    1Thes:4:15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


    2Pt:3:4: And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
     
  18. Claudia_T

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    Look guys, Im only the messenger, dont blame me that Protestantism adopted pagan spiritualism doctrines from the Catholics...


    "The theory of the immortality of the soul was one of those false doctrines that Rome, borrowing from paganism, incorporated into the religion of Christendom. Martin Luther classed it with the "monstrous fables that form part of the Roman dunghill of decretals."--E. Petavel, The Problem of Immortality, page 255. Commenting on the words of Solomon in Ecclesiastes, that the dead know not anything, the Reformer says: "Another place proving that the dead have no . . . feeling. There is, saith he, no duty, no science, no knowledge, no wisdom there. Solomon judgeth that the dead are asleep, and feel nothing at all. For the dead lie there, accounting neither days nor years, but when they are awaked, they shall seem to have slept scarce one minute."-- Martin Luther, Exposition of Solomon's Booke Called Ecclesiastes, page 152." -Great Controvery p.549 EG White
     
  19. Jacob Dahlen

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    SOURCE: THE HOURS OF HOLY PASCHA
    CHRIST is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life.
     
  20. Jacob Dahlen

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    THE CONFESSION OF THE ORTHODOX CRISTIAN FAITH:
    I BELIEVE in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of ture God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; by Whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and of the Virgin Mary, and became man; He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried, and arose on the third day, according to the Scriptures; And ascended into heaven, and sitteth and the right hand of the Father; And He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; of Whose Kingdom there is no end. And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, true and life-giving, Who proceedeth from the Father; Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; Who spake by the prophests. And in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the remission of sins. I wait for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come. Amen.
     

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