Dead Spiritually as a Result of Adam's Sin?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Jerry Shugart, Dec 21, 2011.

  1. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart
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    The Westminister Confession of Faith represents a theological consensus of International Calvinism. There we read that the "death in sin" of Adam and Eve is conveyed to all of their posterity by original generation:

    "They (Adam & Eve) being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter VI., Number 3).

    Therefore, according to the Calvinists all people are born "dead in sin," or born spiritually dead. However, The calvinist's have no rational answer to the fact that Paul calls the Ten Commandments the "minisration of death":

    "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life...the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones" (2 Cor.3:6-8).

    Of course it is the Ten Commandments which are described by Paul as the "ministration of death." Since the "life" spoken of in the same passage is in regard to "spiritual" life then it is evident that the "death" is in reference to "spiritual" death.

    Since a person must be alive "spiritually" before he can die "spiritually" then common sense dictates that no one comes out of the womb spiritually dead. However, the idea that all people are born spiritually dead is the heart and soul of the Calvinist's teaching on "Original Sin."

    We can see that Paul speaks of the same "spiritual" life and death in the following passages:

    "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).

    Since Paul was alive "physically" when he wrote those words the words "death" are referring to a "spiritual" death, especially when we consider what Paul said at 2 Corinthians 3:6-8. Over and over we see the Scriptures declaring in no uncertain terms that "death" comes as a result of a man's own sins and not as a result of Adam's sin:

    "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas.1:14-15).

    "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death" (Ro.7:5).
    Despite all of this Scriptual evidence the Calvinists teach that the "death in sin" of Adam and Eve were "conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation."

    The Calvinists say that an infant comes into the world "spiritually" dead but they cannot explain how anyone can die spiritually as a result of their own sins because a person must first be alive "spiritually" before he can die "spiritually." 
     
  2. Winman

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    I agree. I believed in Original Sin for years because that is what I was taught. Then I saw many scriptures that did not seem to agree with it. For instance, in the parable of the prodigal son, when the young man repented and came home, Jesus twice said he was alive "AGAIN". How could any person be alive "again" if they were born dead in sins? So, this did not match up with OS. I also saw verses like Ecc 7:29 that says God hath made man upright, but they have sought out many inventions. Is this speaking of Adam only? I don't believe so, because it says "they" (plural) have sought out these inventions.

    There was 1 Pet 2:25;

    1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray, but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    Like many other scriptures concerning sin, this verse says we have gone "astray". How can a sheep go astray unless it was first in the flock? And how can you be "returned" to Jesus if you were born separated from God in sin? You cannot return to somewhere you have never been.

    So, over time I saw the scriptures showing us originally alive, but then dying in our OWN sins. Eze 18:20 says the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father or vice versa.

    I no longer believe in Original Sin, in fact, I believe it the single greatest error ever introduced to the church by Augustine.
     
    #2 Winman, Dec 21, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 21, 2011
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Says who?

    The Law is a ministration of death because it REVEALS the sin nature when spiritual dead people attempt to KEEP IT!

    Isn't that the purpose of the Law? To REVEAL THE KNOWLEDGE of sin?

    Spiritual dead people live in DENIAL! They do not see themselves as spiritually dead or evil! This is particularly true with the Jew who was born under law and taught they are God's people by virture of physical birth and circumcison!

    Paul did not see himself as a sinner but "blameless" touching the law. It took the power of the Holy Spriit in connection with the Law to REVEAL to him the KNOWLEDGE of what sin really is! (Roman. 7:6-8; Philip. 3:4-6).

    If they already knew they were spiritual dead sinners then the law would not have been ADDED as a schoolmaster to reveal the KNOWLEDGE of sin and lead them to Christ!!!

    So your argument is moot!
     
  4. Jerry Shugart

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    That is not what Paul said. There is nothing in the context that even hints your view is correct.

    Worse than that, you ignore my comments in regard to the contrast Paul is making in regard to "spiritual" life and "spiritual death."

    If we are to believe your false ideas then we must believe that Paul was contrasting something that resulted in "spiritual life" with something that resulted in revealing the sin nature.

    You are not serious, or you?
    That is one purpose but that is not the only purpose:

    "I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death" (Ro.7:10; NIV).

    "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death" (Ro.7:10; KJV).

    Of course you continue to ignore what James wrote here:

    "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death" (Ro.7:5).
    All you do is pervert the meaning of some of the passages and ignore the others! Your interpretation of the meaning of the words "ministration of death" is not grounded in reality and represents a failed attempt to reconcile the fables of Calvinism with the teaching of the Bible;

    "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life...the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones" (2 Cor.3:6-8).

    According to you the "ministration of death kills no one in any sense whatsoever! Instead "it REVEALS the sin nature when spiritual dead people attempt to KEEP IT!"
     
    #4 Jerry Shugart, Dec 21, 2011
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  5. billwald

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    How is the NOT "the sons being punished for the sins of the fathers?"
     
  6. The Biblicist

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    You can't be serious? Paul tell us explicitly why God "added" the law:

    Gal. 3:19 ¶ Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions,

    and explicitly tells us what purpose the law serves (Rom. 3:20)

    for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


    and explicitly denies it was given to sinners as a way to obtain life (Gal. 3:21).

    "for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

    It is theoretically impossible for SINNERS to obtain eternal life by the Law because the law condemns sinners rather than justifies them.

    However, the law is presented to self-righteous hypocrits as the way to obtain life IF you can keep the law as the law defines "keep"! without failing one point!

    However, the problem is sinners do not see themselves as sinners and this is abundantly clear by Paul's own words in Philippians 3:

    touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.


    Galatians 3:21 denies your whole position that it is possible for eternal life to come by the way of Law for SINNERS!





    I hate to be the bearer of bad news but there are some texts that must be interpreted by the overall context of scripture in order to understand the immediate context!

    1. Paul was raised a Jew who from birth was taught that just being a jew made you a child of God

    2. Paul was raised to believe that the law could be kept and should be kept for eternal life and he believed he did keep the law "blameless".

    3. Paul believed he kept the law "blameless" right up to his conversion experience on the road to Demascus.


    QUESTION: Did Paul actually keep the law "blameless" meaning without any condemnation - thus without ever breaking a single point?

    I really don't believe you understand what the law requires to be "blameless" before God! If you did understand we would not be having this discussion.


    Romans 7:7-12 must be interpreted with parallel passages where the same author speaks about the same subject in relation to himself (Philip. 3:4-6). That is OVERALL context, something your are avoiding because it contradicts your forced interpretation on Romans 7:7-12.


    Philippians 3:4 describes the very same time with the very same words with the very same writer:

    4 ¶ Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

    Not only so, but "in the flesh" in regard to Paul is given a history in Philippians 3:4-6 that begins with Paul as an infant and ends only on the road to Damascus NOT BEFORE! That very fact destroys your interpretation of when Paul was "in the flesh" in Romans 7.

    Have you read the rest of that chapter? Those under the Law CANNOT SEE because of the veil over their heart! They cannot see that the Old Covenant was added only to reveal themselves as sinners and Paul is the supreme example that they CANNOT SEE this because he saw himself only as "blameless"!

    So easy and so clear and yet you cannot see it either because you are just as blind.
     
  7. convicted1

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    I am afraid so, Brother Bill.
     
  8. marke

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    I believe both positions are slightly off. There is no disputing the fact that we are born sinners (Ps. 51:5 and many others). But, as sinners, we are not actually held accountable by God for our sins until He turns on the light of His word and exposes us to the reality of sin and the consequences of unrepentant sin. We see verses like Romans 5:13, which says God does not impute sin when there is no law (before the entrance of God's word gives light and understanding to the darkened minds of sinners who are born in sin).

    Paul was not condemned by sin until the light was turned on (Rom. 7:9), but he was doing things worthy of death the whole time before the light was turned on for him on the road to Damascus, wich is evidence that he was not righteous during that time, but just under the protection of a loving Saviour who was not yet imputing his trespasses unto him (2 Cor. 5:19). Paul testifies to his own wickedness in 1 Ti. 1:13, but declares that he obtained mercy because he "did it ignorantly in unbelief."

    Jesus told a crowd of wicked Pharisees "If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see, therefore your sin remaineth." (John 9:41).
    The Lord also told His disciples about the Pharisees, "If I had not come and spoken unto them they had not had sin..." (John 15:22), and, "If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin..." (vs 24). The prodigal, like the Apostle Paul, was 'alive' (not condemned because they did not yet know they were to be condemned if they didn't get saved) without the law once, but when their eyes were opened ("And when he came to himself..." (Luke 15:17), i.e., he began to see) they no longer had any excuse for their sin, just like Jesus said, "If ye were blind ye should have no sin, BUT... (it is another story altogether once the eyes are opened by God).

    Why do people go to hell? Certainly not for Adam's sin, as shown in Eze. 18. And not even for their sins of ignorance or those committed before the Lord opened their eyes. No, condemnation is the result of rejecting the light, which must first come by the Holy Spirit to "every man that cometh into the world." (John 1:9). What is condemnation? "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world..." (John 3:19). Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, not imputing their trespasses unto them, but God, who may wink at their sins of ignorance before the light is turned on, will not ever wink at the sin of those who disobey his command that every man every where repent (Acts 17:30).
     
  9. 12strings

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    So you are saying that the whole Christian message should be kept quiet, lest people hear about Jesus and reject him...since as long as they don't have God's word, they're fine?
     
  10. savedbymercy

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    The elect are dead spiritually because of their sin in Adam, but they are not condemned by it. Christ bore their condemnation !
     
  11. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Says who? Support your contention.
     
  12. Pastor David

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    "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins...among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath" - Eph. 2:1;3


    Paul indicates men who were spiritually dead are made alive by God. He also says we all once conducted ourselves as those who were spiritually dead. Finally Paul state that 'by nature' (in our unregenerate fallen estate) we are objects of God's wrath.
     
  13. The Biblicist

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    What is the condemnation for sin according to the scriptures? Whatever the scriptures say the condemnation is for sin, then, according to you the elect could not be subject to it, effected by it, fall under it, experience it because they are not under that condemnation!

    "the wages of sin is death"

    Hence, according to you the elect are not under the condemnation of death, therefore the elect do not come under, are not affected, do not experience death.

    However, what is "death"? Is not death "separation" spiritually, physically and eternally? Is not "death" manifest in corruption of body (aging, disease), corruption of spirit?

    If the elect are not subject to condemnation then would it not be true they are not sinners either because only without sin is there no condemantion.

    Do you make a distinction between our personal condition versus our position "in Christ" in regard to sin and condemnation (death)????
     
  14. Jerry Shugart

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    I am totally serious. I do not play games with the Scriptures as you do.

    You said:
    According to you the Law brings death to those who are already spiritually dead! According to you the Law is a ministration of death but it actually kills no one in any way!

    How can anyone take you seriously?

    What Scriptures passage are you not willing to pervert? And of course you refuse to acknowledge that the "death" in the following verse brings an actual death to people when they sin:

    "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death" (Ro.7:5).

    You refuse to even attempt to deal with what I said about this passage:

    "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life...the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones" (2 Cor.3:6-8).

    Since the "life" spoken of in the same passage is in regard to "spiritual" life then it is evident that the "death" is in reference to "spiritual" death. But you deny the symmetry of this passage because you refuse to compare spiritual things with spiritual:

    "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual" (1 Cor.2:13).

    According to Paul the "spirit giveth life." The "life" speaks of a real "life" that comes to a person and since it is the Spirit that gives it it is a "spiritual" life.

    Paul would not be contrasting a "life" which actually brings life to a person and is "spiritual" with a "death" which does not actually befall a person and which is not "spiritual."

    But your whole interpretation of this passage depends on him doing just that! Then to make it even worse you just refuse to comment on these points which I continue to make.
     
  15. convicted1

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    Apostle Paul stated this is Romans 7:

    Now, how can you "slew" a dead thing?
     
  16. savedbymercy

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    the bib

    Death, and so that is why Christ had to die in behalf of the Elect, their condemnation was charged unto Him and not them ! 2 Cor 5:19

    No, how could they be ? Christ came under condemnation of death for them. Do you believe that ?

    The elect experience alienation from God by nature, but they are not condemned by God for that ! In fact, even while they are alienated and enemies by nature, they have been reconciled to God by the Death of His Son Rom 5:10

    10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    Even while they were being enemies [present tense] they were reconciled[past tense] to God, by Christ's blood.

    So they were not under condemnation for being enemies of God by nature, they were reconciled[objectively] to God, in His favor. I have went over this with you before !

    No thats not True, a person can be a sinner and not under God's condemnation ! The Lady taken in Adultery, what did Jesus say to her !

    Jn 8:11

    She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

    That was His verdict of her before the foundation of the world, her sins were imputed to His Charge !
     
  17. Jerry Shugart

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    According to you the Law brings death to those who are already spiritually dead! According to you the Law is a ministration of death but it actually kills no one in any way!

    How can anyone take you seriously?

    What Scriptures passage are you not willing to pervert? And of course you refuse to acknowledge that the "death" in the following verse brings an actual death to people when they sin:

    "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death" (Ro.7:5).

    You refuse to even attempt to deal with what I said about this passage:

    "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life...the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones" (2 Cor.3:6-8).

    Since the "life" spoken of in the same passage is in regard to "spiritual" life then it is evident that the "death" is in reference to "spiritual" death. But you deny the symmetry of this passage because you refuse to compare spiritual things with spiritual:

    "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual" (1 Cor.2:13).

    According to Paul the "spirit giveth life." The "life" speaks of a real "life" that comes to a person and since it is the Spirit that gives it it is a "spiritual" life.

    Paul would not be contrasting a "life" which actually brings life to a person and is "spiritual" with a "death" which does not actually befall a person and which is not "spiritual."

    But your whole interpretation of this passage depends on him doing just that! Then to make it even worse you just refuse to comment on these points which I continue to make.
    The Law is a ministration of death because it REVEALS the sin nature when spiritual dead people attempt to KEEP IT!
    The Law is a ministration of death because it REVEALS the sin nature when spiritual dead people attempt to KEEP IT!
     
  18. marke

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    Not at all, because God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. God has committed Himself to draw all men to salvation (John 12:32) and to open the eyes of every man born into the world (John 1:9), because men must hear and understand the word of God before they can either receive the knowledge of the truth and be saved, or reject the knowledge of the truth with never any repentance and be damned. Nobody goes to heaven or hell without being exposed to the truth. If one person or group fails to preach the gospel to every creature, God will just use someone or something else to open the eyes of the blind so they can see what they need from Him.

    People who have not yet heard and responded to the gospel are actually, by default, condemned already (John 3:18), but God has taken their sin on Himself (1 John 2:2), yet they must be born again before that atonement will become effectual for them personally. People must hear the gospel in order to believe the gospel, so it is not God's plan to keep it quiet. If I was a Calvinist, however, I would see no need to bother with preaching the gospel to every creature if I believed God was going to save them first before ever telling them anything about the Bible, and all the preaching and teaching will just be provided by God in the future of the 'Divinely Chosen' individual.
     
    #18 marke, Dec 23, 2011
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  19. The Biblicist

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    So now you claim to be God by making judgements that only God can make in regard to the intent of the heart. You have to assume such a judgement based upon your own puny intellectual observations of what I have said and I have never said I play games with God's Word. Of course, getting personal is your MO when you have no substance.


    This is just a matter of common sense. IF sinners knew they were sinners then why on earth would Paul say that God gave the law to REVEAL the knowledge of sin? Think about that statement!

    If you do not know you are a sinner you do not know you are spiritually dead do you? Because to know you are spiritually dead you must know you are under the condemnation of the law!

    Paul NEVER knew he was a sinner because from birth he believed he was "blameless" touching the law and that is his own testimony in Philippians 3:4-6 where he begins with his birth and concludes with his persecution of the church at Jerusalem and his self-evaluation in regard to the law was that he was BLAMELESS right up to his coversion on the road to Damascus.

    Tell me, WHEN did he change his mind about being "blameless" touching the Law unto his righteousnesses being "DUNG"?

    I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

    Formerly from birth to persecution he counted them as "blameless" but at what point did he count them but "dung"?


    Are you seriously going to tell me and the readers that this man knew he was condemned touching the law and thus dead in sins any time prior to his conversion experience?

    Was it during his trip to demascus that he began first to feel the "pricks" of the law upon his conscience revealing he was not blameless but condemned, thus spiritually dead in sins?????

    Romans 7:6-8 is that experience with the law on the road to demascus when he came to REALIZE that he was dead in sins from birth to persecution rather than blameless touching the law beginning with eighth day circumcision confirmation to the law from birth to persecution:

    Philip. 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
    6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

    So his self-conception of "blameless" touchin the law began when? "CIRCUMCISED THE EIGHTH DAY" - from the time of his infancy until the persecution of the church.

    So, yes, the law REVEALS that you are born spiritually dead because people do no know they are spiritually dead except by knowledge given by the Law and that knowledge must be imparted by THE SPIRIT OF GOD and it is called CONVICTION of sin.

    Romans 7:8-9 is a record of Pauls' CONVICTION on the road to Demascus when he began for the first time in his life to feel the "pricks" of the law upon his conscience!
     
  20. Jerry Shugart

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    Giving someone the knowledge that they are spiritually death CANNOT be described a bringing a death upon them.

    You talk about common sense but when it comes to the Scriptures you are continually throwing your reason to the wind! You refuse to even attempt to deal with what I said about this passage:

    "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life...the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones" (2 Cor.3:6-8).

    Since the "life" spoken of in the same passage is in regard to "spiritual" life then it is evident that the "death" is in reference to "spiritual" death. But you deny the symmetry of this passage because you refuse to compare spiritual things with spiritual:

    "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual" (1 Cor.2:13).

    According to Paul the "spirit giveth life." The "life" speaks of a real "life" that comes to a person and since it is the Spirit that gives it it is a "spiritual" life.

    Paul would not be contrasting a "life" which actually brings life to a person and is "spiritual" with a "death" which does not actually befall a person and which is not "spiritual."

    But your whole interpretation of this passage depends on him doing just that!
     

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