Dead Spiritually

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by ILUVLIGHT, Sep 18, 2003.

  1. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
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    Hi Everyone; [​IMG]
    I've been reading some of your post again I can't help but notice this term. Sure gets used a lot here.

    I've been reasoning the use of this term and have read about it in the Bible. There is one place where death is described as the dead knowing nothing. I would agree in one sense this seems to be true except isn't being dead spiritually different than being dead physcially.

    In Luke 16:20 there this parable that Christ told about Lazarus and the rich man. How they both died and went to different places. The thing that I thought of this morning is that even though dead the rich man could look into Abrahams bosom and see Lazarus there. the richman calls out to Abraham and ask that Lazarus be sent to him. Definetly a conversation going on and definetly evidence of hearing though he's dead.

    May I suggest that this term dead spiritually is a figure of speach. In the sense that reasonably our spirit can't be dead or we would be dead for sure. Since the word "death" religiously means seperation. I would think this wouldn't be meant literally. But be meant figuratively. Possibly we are considered dead in sin. because this is where sin takes us.

    This term also has a lot to do with Total Depravity. In that it is said that we are so depraved. That because of this depravity we aren't able to respond. Thus the term "spiritually dead". It doesn't make since to consider physical death as being anything like spiritual death. The second death is spiritual death and even then the dead are conscious able to feel pain. Those who will die a second time.Would have to have a cognitive ability in order to know they aren't in the presence of Christ and to experince the agony of hell. Though it is said that dead men know nothing we only see this from a life perspective. I'd be intrested in what you all have on this so that I might weigh both sides of the issue in my own determination as which is right.

    May God Bless You All.
    Mike
     
  2. tannerml

    tannerml
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    The only thing I'll say here is that we must be careful when dealing with parables and trying to extract unrelated points of doctrine from them. I don't think the point of this parable was to teach us about what life will be like in heaven and hell other than heaven is a place of eternal rest and bliss and that hell is a place of torment. The point here seems to be that a high station in this life (being a "respectable person") by no means guarantees us of eternal life and that the downtrodden and forgotten have as much hope of Heaven as anyone else. I think to cite this parable as evidence that the saints and those condemned are able to converse in their eternal state is a bit of a stretch.
     
  3. Me2

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    although man doesnt realize this. spiritual death (or seperation) of man and God has to be agreed upon of its existence and its ultimate consequences before it can be resolved if any alternative solution can be offered and applied.

    either in the OT or NT man must first agree that he is destined for eventual death with no hope of rescue or he cannot be saved from his enevitable doom.

    the law was designed to bring the individual to a state of hopelessness. the defining goal of the "curse" of the law is to bring about revelation or knowledge. "the soul that sins shall die".
    one error following the law should bring the individual to this conclusion.
    "utter hopelessness without repreive or rescue".

    whether in the OT or NT, the idea is the same.

    In the NT a double edged "seed" is sown within us.

    it comes to us within the spirit of Jesus.

    The holy spirit teaches us of Grace, and the forgiveness and of the ultimate plans and Goals of God for us.. of the needs of man and the supply of God.
    but there also exists the Law present within this "seed".
    Its purpose is designed to bring us to our own revelation of knowledge of our own death (seperation) and hopelessness without faith "in God, and of his propitiation".

    upon our first failure of following the law and acceptance of our shortcomings. we realize we are now called a "sinner". and are in need of a propitiator.
    we comprehend the idea that we are in a state of spiritual "death" (seperation) caused by the recognition and agreement of Gods decree and our own realization and agreement with God.. "the soul that sins shall die".

    we "by the word of faith of God" agree that we are truly dead (seperated) and in need of a savior or substitute.
     
  4. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi tannerml; [​IMG]
    I admit I'm no scholar but at the same time even though this scripture is about two different people and what happened to them after death is a story presented by Christ why should I assume that it's fictional ?.

    Wouldn't you agree that if any part is fictional then this would be saying that there are things in God's word that just aren't true?

    If there is anything in God's word that isn't true then maybe we should throw it out and not believe any of it.

    Besides all of this I admit that I'm still learning and have made no claims of any special insite into scripture.

    This scripture isn't what I'm adressing here nor is it these two men that Christ is speaking about. It's about the term "dead spiritually" and it's relation to Calvinism's claim that we are dead and can't hear the gospel.

    I'm sorry if my approach broke some unspoken rule that I'm unaware of.I hope that you can forgive my inexperience.

    May God Bless You.
    Mike
     
  5. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
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    Hi Me2;
    A quote from you;
    I realize that man is born in sin and is a sinner and without Christ is doomed. This is true of all men. Then Christ enters the picture and takes the sins of the world and dies providing an escape from death for man and all he has to do is have faith in Christ to have eternal life. Actually I agree with your post

    Then you would agree the term "dead Spiritually" doesn't mean we can't hear or know of Salvation simply because of our seperation. because being dead spiritually isn't the same as dead physcially.

    I hope I got this right. You are saying that the seperation, is seperation from God and not necessarily seperation from the body.

    May God Bless You.
    Mike
     
  6. Me2

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    your understanding correctly.

    God speaks of our "spiritual" seperation.

    But then theres Jesus death being used as Gods sacrificial lamb and erradicating "all" sin from creation.

    If we accept that as Gods intentions all along..

    eventually that sacrificial death would make the curse of the law, death and hell and all forms of spiritual seperation "void".

    placing all of his spiritual creation "within" himself.

    Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

    or..

    1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    Me2
     
  7. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
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    Hi Me2; [​IMG]
    A quote from you;
    My reply will be in a few days I have a little probablem at work I have to take care of so please be patient If you've ever had to deal with HUD :( You would understand.
    Mat God bless You.
    Mike
     
  8. tannerml

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    To play the devil's advocate ... why would you insist that every point and detail of this parable is a description of an actual event and then suggest that the term "spiritually dead" is just a figure of speech? Just something to think about.
     
  9. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi tannerml;
    Good question. First let me say I certainly hope neither of has anything to do with the devil.

    To the point being dead spiritually, as I think of it, doesn't mean that I'm deaf and dumb or blind to spiritual things. In the since that it's a figure of speach says that man as in dead spiritually is like being dead physcially. IMHO this isn't so. we are dead in sin because we in our unsaved state are sperated from God. Not dead as the body is dead when it dies. The spirit never stops functioning even when seperated from God. This is why when we are dead spiritually we aren't dead literally. Dead means seperated,not disfunctional.

    The day I was saved was just as sinfull as all the others in my past.In the moment I was saved there was an instant change in my life like no other. The reason I came to believe in Christ was conviction of who and what I was. In that moment I knew I needed Christ to clear away all the junk of sin. In the moment I confessed Christ, I became new. I'm not saying I haven't sinned since. I have but as Paul said I die daily to sin. The things that have changed are the way things look how problems that come up in life are always best solved with prayer. How I see others in that every person on earth has a soul, that can be saved just like me. Believe me, If I can be saved anyone can be.

    My out look on life use to be how much can I make. This was my idea of success. Now it's what can I do for the lord. I no longer fool myself into thinking I'm better than anyone else on any level. It's changed my life for the better. I'm no longer depressed when someone else gets that promotion. Now I'm happy for them and I feel no resentment for it. Being saved has freed me from all the strife that is sin. If you think about it all sin brings strife.

    To discover truth is not the good of the one who discovers but the one who told the truth is where the good comes from.As my salvation came about it wasn't because of anything I did that was good. I heard the truth and considered what was said. Then confessed Christ and asked for his mercy to forgive me and to give me grace. My actions were for self preservation. I didn't want to die in my sin and not be with Christ. I wanted the change that the pastor talked about. I realize that my best up to that point was really bad.

    May God Bless You.
    Mike
     

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