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Featured Dealing with the problems of today

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Judith, Jan 19, 2013.

  1. nodak

    nodak Active Member
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    My question to some is this: what would you do IF you had proof this was a medical abnormality?

    My take is this: we have medical proof SOME are genetic abnormality. Therefore at least SOME are not because a child or his parents sinned are sinning. What we cannot yet know is whether or not all of these so afflicted have a medical problem. Just because we haven't found it doesn't mean it isn't there--or that it is.

    When germ theory was accepted, some rushed to assume ALL disease was germ caused. Some rejected germ theory outright. Today we know for sure SOME diseases are germ caused, and some diseases may or may not have a germ basis. An example is ms: we have no proof of any germ causation. That isn't the same as proof a germ doesn't cause it.

    We know genetic abnormalities cause this affliction SOMETIMES. We DON'T know if it is ALWAYS the cause or not.

    We are limited in our medical knowledge. It isn't that far back we didn't know all babies were not born either xx or xy.

    I would continue to hold out the truth that for someone without medical abnormality this would be sin, but not for someone with it. After discussing this with the family, I would wait to see if they still wanted to join my church.

    Now, if I were the parents of an afflicted child and was asked to provide medical proof, even if I had the dna results in my hand, I would find another church. I would figure I had inadvertantly landed in a nest of viperous Pharisees who would question, as they did Jesus, whether the man born blind had sinned or his parents.

    I would do this because anyone demanding medical records would probably treat my child as a freak or pariah even knowing the facts about the birth defect.

    And I would remind them as I left that while in Jesus' time lepers were considered unclean and untouchable, Jesus touched them. He didn't worry either that the woman with the flow of blood made Him unclean.

    Perhaps we should worry less about maintaining our purity and more about obeying Christ.
     
  2. mont974x4

    mont974x4 New Member

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    In seven different verses in the NT we find the term "self control". One of those places is in Galatians as one aspect of the fruit of the Spirit. As Christians we should be growing in self control. Do I fail here? Absolutely. If we're being honest we would say that we all do.

    I could claim that being a drunk and a womanizer is just who I am. It's in my nature. However, that would fly in the face of what Scripture tells us. Notice the past tense in verse 11.

    1Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
    1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
    1Co 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (NASB, emphasis mine)

    If we claim the name of Christ we cannot look back and blame nature for our choice to continue living in sinful lifestyles. We are not the same person. We are new creations and no longer slaves to sin. That means we should be growing in holiness and that means growing in self control. Everyday we should be winning more battles with this body of death.

    The most unloving thing we can do is to watch someone continue in sin without being warned. Fear of offending someone who desires to excuse temporary pleasure when eternal joy is at stake is a heinous offense.
     
  3. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    you guys are fussing a lot about something that shouldn't be fussed about.
    I guess I'd throw some of the blame right back at the blogger.
    Why the dickens should he even talk about the issue like it was a Christian issue in some church or something ?
    there was no indication that family was a Christian family or belonged to a Christian church and were being persecuted.
    the blogger should've come right out and stated what he felt should be done IF it happened in a Christian church to some family instead of throwing a teaser like that.
    so, let me throw a question now.
    what would you all do if it was your boy/girl ?
    forget about science, forget about DNA, forget about everything else.
    it's your child, your problem.
    what would you do ?
     
  4. Gregory Perry Sr.

    Gregory Perry Sr. Active Member

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    My Answer...

    I had to take a day or so and just back away from this before answering and maybe I should stay silent.....but no....WE ARE to "contend for the faith". MP (and any of you others who may share his viewpoint)...I HOPE I'm wrong about you but since you proudly post an Obama logo and "bludgeon" us with quotes from this ungodly man in a Christian Forum I can't stay silent. This man is responsible (from the perspective of his and his party's leadership) for one of the most profound moral shift's in modern history with his out-spoken support of abortion (murder) and same-sex marriage/gay rights (a Biblical abomination). As far as I'm concerned that renders your opinion regarding my posted Biblical viewpoint invalid and unworthy of my consideration. I know that may sound harsh but we need to quit "tiptoeing thru the tulips" around here. I am no pharisee. I sincerely desire that these people we are discussing would come to true saving faith in Jesus Christ and be saved and delivered from their sin(s)....but that won't happen as long as we hesitate or fail to call SIN what it is....SIN. I was attempting to advance the STRICTLY Biblical viewpoint because, frankly, THAT is the ONLY ONE that will produce any real and lasting solution...or spiritual fruit. I stand by that position. I love these people who are captive to their sin....I remain willing to show them compassion and love and pray for them and if possible share a witness with them. But to "coddle" them with more "psycho-babble" and tell then they are OK (or there is some "medical" reason for their sin) is sinful and does not honor God OR help them. Their lifestyle is still an abomination (God's Word...not mine) and must be confronted and rebuked. As for me being holier-than-thou...you could not be further from the truth in your mis-judgement of me. If I got what I deserved I would roast in Hell for eternity. It is ONLY by God's grace and boundless mercy that I can declare that I am saved today. IF there is any righteousness in my life today it is because of the presence of my Saviour in the person of His Holy Spirit within me....and so often is the case that my own fleshly nature gets in the way and grieves Him. I want His righteousness in my life. I long for the purity of the eternal life and the world TO COME. For the record....the church I attend is full of mostly humble, Bible-believing sinners saved-by-grace who love each other and try to pray for and seek the lost. The truly Biblical viewpoint IS the answer because it is of faith and not the flesh.
    We must operate within the framework of Biblical Truth as follows:
    Titus 2:11-15:
    11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
    12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;[emphasis mine]
    13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
    14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
    15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

    These are the verses that I try to live by daily. If we do this we WILL BE out-of-step with the world around us. It is a stigma that we should be willing to bear if we are to be "in-step" with our Master. In my opinion, Obama and his "crowd" don't have the slightest clue what any of this really means or what the inevitable results of their supposedly "enlightened" worldview will be.

    Bro.Greg:praying:
     
    #44 Gregory Perry Sr., Jan 22, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 22, 2013
  5. Gregory Perry Sr.

    Gregory Perry Sr. Active Member

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    For The Record

    As to the OP....(IF) this child and his family are unsaved then the whole argument that is going forth here is somewhat irrelevant beyond being an interesting (and controversial) discussion topic. If they are unsaved then they have a far greater problem than the boy's sexual orientation or his parents attitude about it. They all have to face the fact of their eternal destination. We need to remember that the starting point of the discussion and the ONLY ultimate solution to the problems presented is the very NARROW truth that "Ye must be born again". Without that, the rest is irrelevant. "Without (true Biblical) faith,it is impossible to please Him...."

    Bro.Greg:praying:
     
  6. mont974x4

    mont974x4 New Member

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    If it was my own child my answer cannot change. Scripture does not give us the freedom to only preach and teach the truth to strangers. Watching a loved one embrace a sinful lifestyle is heartbreaking. It only makes our prayers and desires for repentance more earnest. However, we have a choice to make....Our Lord challenges me with these words....

    Mat 10:34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
    Mat 10:35 "For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;
    Mat 10:36 and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
    Mat 10:37 "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. (NASB)


    Do not assume that I speak as a man untouched by this issue. The reality is my family has been dealing with this issue for over 30 years.
     
  7. nodak

    nodak Active Member
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    So if I understand some of you right, even if dna were to prove this child a chimera or if exploratory surgery confirmed both testes and ovaries in the abdominal cavity, you would still consider correcting this birth defect a sin???

    So would you consider fixing a club foot or a cleft palate a sin?

    If it proved to have a medical reason, what sin do you see this child committing?
     
  8. mont974x4

    mont974x4 New Member

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    We're not talking about a medical issue here like being deaf or having a cleft palate. In the OP, and this discussion, were talking about a boy wanting to be a girl.

    The defect is not a sin. None of us are saying that it is. The decisions and actions are the sin issue. Actions that claim to have a biological basis as there excuse are not exempt.

    You can play the what-if game if you like. I find it to be a futile distraction that assumes we can find an excuse for sin if we look hard enough. I prefer to trust God's standard as being righteous and just and pray for Him to help me live it out not matter how difficult.
     
  9. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    500 cases. Why do we assume that these are one of 500 cases?

    The vast majority of people do not have a medical reason for this. So let's separate the "medical possibility" with the facts. Does this child have both sex organs? NO. He needs hormones to become the opposite sex. So your argument is moot.
     
  10. nodak

    nodak Active Member
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    So no one wants to answer a simple question: should it be proven to be a medical issue, would you believe fixing it is a sin? Yes or no.

    Also--just for the record--the fact the child wants or is being given hormones does not prove him to be in fact 100% biologically male wanted to change to be female.

    If he is--yes, I would agree sin.

    Hormonal therapy is also used when a child has been influenced by having both ovaries and testes to reset after removing one or the other. That isn't a sex change operation. It can be used when a child is biologically female but is ambiguous in development due to not producing the right amounts of female hormones.

    I don't know where you get your 500 number--that sounds about right for documented complete true hermaphrodites, which doesn't even begin to equate with the number of people born yearly with genetic sexual abnormalities. I'm no more being assuming in postulating he might be one of those than you are in assuming he isn't.

    I've already established that I believe if one is born 100% biologically male and simply rebels against that, changing sexes is a sin. On that we agree. No need to debate it.

    But none of you seem to want to discuss what if that isn't the case? What would your stand be if you KNEW this child was either born asexual, intersexed, chimera, xxy, or with other provable medical issue.

    Would you see correction as sin?
     
  11. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    The action and behavior would still be a sin - yes. If one has a natural inclination to be an alcoholic because of genetics (which is proven), do we just support them in their alcoholism? People are created with XX or XY chromosomes and to have any variation in that is so rare, we're not even going to discuss it right now. Homosexuals, transgenders and the like still have that XX and XY genes. Bottom line - you are created as a gender and to change that gender and live as the other gender is sinful.

    Oh? How can he be a female if he has XY chromosomes? Are we told that this boy is not genetically a male and instead a female? No. If he was, I'm sure that would be a pertinent bit of information to speak about in the article, don't you think?

    Again, do we see that this child has a genetic malformation? It would have said so in the article I'm sure as proof that this is "right".

    Again - If I had an article written about my son wanting to change his sex to be female - and it was such a public issue, wouldn't I say "We found that he is actually both male and female genetically/physically and he chose to identify female so we are going with that"? I would think that would make a LOT more sense than the kid feels female so he's going with that.

    Bottom line is this: Show me this boy has a birth defect that made him a boy when he's really a girl and then we'll discuss the possibility. The cases are rare. Sin is not.
     
  12. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    I assume this is an answer to my question about what one would do if this were one's child ?
    Thank you.
    So I suppose you would be hammering the child about how sinful he is and how he must repent of that sin or the Lord will punish him ?
    Typical baptist, and I mean no offense in that.
    I know, because I was once that.
    But we're forgetting one thing, I suppose.
    That unless the Lord Himself grants a repentant heart to His child, Jesus Christ Himself may be talking to that sinner in person and His words will mean nothing to him.
    Consequences of sin mean nothing to the unregenerate sinner, whether here in time, or for eternity, and we have the witness of millions who have succumbed to sinful lifestyles and vices all over the world, who continued in their lifestyles and sin despite mounting evidence of its temporal consequences, never mind the eternal.
    I am thankful to the Lord this has not happened to my family, except in the case of my baby brother, who is about to die this February for cirrhosis of the liver secondary to his hepatitis A which he contracted unbeknownst to him as a result of his drug addiction.
    I have homosexual nephews and nieces and a lesbian aunt, and since they know I'm a preacher they ask me about the Bible and I give it to them square between the eyes, but, hey, they're still at it, you know, and why ?
    Because they're not regenerates, to this point in time, as far as I know, and I don't know if God has them down in His Book of Life, and that's just the point of my question.
    You see, the Bible seems to imply that if one is an elect child of God (and it doesn't matter to me if you believe in election or not) then most, if not all, of your family are numbered among His children also.
    Remember David mourning for his adulterous offspring by Bathsheba ?
    So, earlier in another post I said if this were my son, I'd take him as he is, sin and all, and trust in the Lord with all my heart and in all my ways acknowledge him, because if my son were also His Son, in His own due time, He will do what He needs to do to glorify His Name in him.
    And I'm glad my church thinks along the same line as I do.
    At least the child won't have to grow like he was some freak of nature just because somebody else long ago allowed sin to corrupt what was otherwise a good, God-forward life his Creator gave him.
     
  13. Magnetic Poles

    Magnetic Poles New Member

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  14. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    Old timer...

    Nonsense

    We want no part of "uplifting" or "condoning" the sin or the sinner.

    We are called to seek to heal them though the indwelling of Christ!

    How can we do that, when they come to our church for help..and we take Mont9744s advice that consisted of telling them....

    GO AWAY! You are not welcome here at our church????
     
    #54 Alive in Christ, Jan 22, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 22, 2013
  15. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2 Well-Known Member
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    The sad thing is....

    ....many municipal health insurance plans are now encouraging this surgery by paying for it. For example, city employees in San Francisco and Oakland now pay for the surgery, and the after surgery medications needed to maintain the hormones in the person who had the surgery.

    If children see this, it must be even more encouraging to them, as it appears that with these cities paying for the surgery, IT MUST BE OKAY!

    Our society is falling apart at the seams, and nobody is stepping up to say this is wrong, and when a lone voice in the wilderness does speak something, they are condemned as being purveyors of "hate" speech!

    Then there are some main line churches that see nothing wrong with this, so if these folks were admonished by one church, all they 'd have to do is find one that says, "You're okay with our God!"

    I can clearly see where SIN is dividing the church down the middle, as there are churches that accept gays, transgenders, etc.

    An interesting side note is that some gays shun transgenders. :tonofbricks:
     
  16. Gregory Perry Sr.

    Gregory Perry Sr. Active Member

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    Questions...and clarification....

    AiC....you responded to Oldtimer in your previous post by saying, in part, the above statement. Can you please provide scriptural support for your statement above? I only ask this because I don't personally know of any place in scripture where we are "called" to do any of the above. You are welcome to correct me (scripturally) if I am mistaken. I do believe we are commanded to "earnestly contend for the faith" and I do believe we are to be witnesses to the saving Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ which is the good news of the forgiveness of sin realized by trusting in the finished work of Christ on the cross (1 Cor.15:3-4). We are NOT called to "seek to heal them". It is neither our "job" nor within our ability to do so. IF we are called to do anything other than what I said above it would be to share with them the pertinent passages in the Word of God that would help them to realize their NEED of the Saviour. The truth is, even if we are faithful to do THAT...it is still the Holy Spirit that must open their eyes and , if you will, "turn on the lights" before they will repent and come to Christ for salvation. Then... and only then can they get a resolution to their inherent sin problems.

    Bro.Greg:saint:
     
  17. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    "Come out thou foul and deaf spirit!! Say baby." Hez 2:34
     
  18. Gregory Perry Sr.

    Gregory Perry Sr. Active Member

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    Time To Turn Off The TV

    Too much Ernest Angley for you SN....step away from the TV set!!:tongue3:

    Bro.Greg:saint:
     
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Gregory Perry Sr.

    You might have to wait awhile for ......scriptural support from AIC...his MO.is not usually to offer any at all:laugh: he just makes random statements many which seem to contradict scripture like this;


    See..many statements...no scripture????
     
  20. Oldtimer

    Oldtimer New Member

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    Sad......

    First, I didn't say "we". I said "society". There is a difference, you know.

    Next, we are called to share the gospel of Christ with sinners. God does the healing, not us. Once we fulfill our commission and a sinner hears the message of Christ, then it's between God and the sinner. As much as we may like to think differently, we cannot assume the role of the Holy Spirit in "healing" heart of a sinner.

    Yes, sometimes it is our responsibility to tell them to GO AWAY!

    Recently a college age young man began attending our church. It was very apparent that he was gay. At first he was welcomed to visit. For example, he was welcomed into my Sunday school class. It was an opportunity to share the gospel with him. Soon, it also became apparent, that he wanted to "hang around" with the young teens in our church. So apparent that the youth leaders had to make sure he never had the opportunity to be alone with those children.

    It was the responsibility of the church to tell him to GO AWAY!

    What's the difference between telling this unrepentent sinner to go away and telling a fallen pastor to go away? Or a deacon or other church leader when he turns away from being led by the Holy Spirit? Some say alcoholism is a medical issue. I know two pastors who are former alcoholics. If either of them were to come to the pulpit drunk, would it be the church's responsibility to let them continue to lead the congregation or to GO AWAY!?

    From the OP link: http://www.dennyburk.com/the-little-boy-who-wanted-to-be-a-girl/
    Growing up, I went to school with two boys and a girl who were clearly influenced by their parents. In one instance, the boy lived with his two maiden aunts. The other, the boy's mother wanted a girl. The third, the father desperately wanted a boy when his last daughter was born. It would take far too much time to go into details in each of these cases. Each ended up living transgender lives.

    From what was written the the OP article, it appears this is a similar situtation. Untll evidence is given that this child suffers from a birth defect, it appears that this child is the result of parenting of this child. Who bought dresses for him when he first said he wanted to be a girl?
     
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