Featured Dealing with the problems of today

Annsi, why are you afraid to just answer what your thoughts would be if it were proven to you a child had a genetic problem or birth defect?

Why keep battling me that this is sin until proven otherwise? I've already agreed with you that it very well COULD be just nothing more than a sinful attitude.

Why won't you calmly address how you would respond IF IT IS A BIRTH DEFECT?

We can argue for eternity about if it is or not, but we don't have his medical records.

Can you just reply yes or no would you be declaring it sinful IF you knew it was a birth defect?

What are some so afraid of?

Not all "females" are born xx and not all "males" are born xy. What is so scarey about that from a spiritual standpoint?

 

Some of you are appallingly dishonest in how you twist and misrepresent what others post. I never said anything about hammering on anyone. I never said to not extend grace, love, or mercy to anyone. I never said to just tell them to go away. I said we need to hold to a biblical standard and not make excuses for sin.

Go ahead and flame me. Go ahead and accuse me of whatever bigotry and hate you want. The fact remains that what I posted was biblical, loving, and had nothing but hopes of God's best for sinners and that is repentance and restoration.

 

Absolutely, totally agree we uphold God's standards.

But someone show me the verse that says it is a sin to be born with a genetic flaw.

This child in the OP may or may not have one. We do not know.

But so many go on and on about our sinful society, his sinful parents, and his sin WITHOUT knowing if he is sinful OR if he has a birth defect.

We rush to judgement without the facts.

So sad. And so sinful.

 

Some are using unknowns and emotional extremes to justify anything but a biblical standard.

The odds of being hit by a bus are relatively slim. The Bible tells us to not let any unwholesome word come from our mouth. Let's assume you step off a curb and just a split second before you are hit by the bus you drop an f-bomb. The circumstances don't make the sin not a sin, even if we can justify saying the f-bomb.

Many people are born with legitimate medical issues. They can choose to be bitter, angry people. Which is sin no matter how legit the medical issues. They have chosen to act in a sinful manner.

Everything we know from the article in the OP points to a choice being made by the boy. Logic dictates that if there was a medical anomaly, especially given how rare it would be, that the article would inform us of it. That means he is basing his choice on a feeling. I hope we can agree that feelings are no excuse for sinful choices.

If I feel like being a drunk and I choose to live that way I am in sin. Some argue that alcoholism is a legit medical issue. That does not change the fact that being a drunkard is a sin.
If I feel like having an affair with the neighbors wife and I choose to do so then I am in sin.
If I feel like having an affair with the man I saw at the gas station and I choose to do so then I am in sin.
I have some legit medical issues. They involve severe chronic and incurable pain. It is understandable if I fall in depression and anger. However, these would be sin because they are not of faith and ignore Scriptural calls to rejoice, trust God, and so on. No matter how I feel and no matter how legit the medical issues I have to choose to sin or not sin.

If I claim to be a Christian and I do these things then it is the responsibility of another Christian to confront me with the hopes of bringing me to repentance and restoration.


There are actual biological processes involved in lust. It does not make the sin any less a sin.

Back to the OP.
This is a heartbreaking and personal issue for me. I lost an uncle to AIDS because he chose to live the sinful lifestyle of a homosexual. He left his wife and three sons for another man. I have a nephew and a niece who are gay. I love them dearly. That means I cannot excuse their sinful choices, no matter how "natural" they claim it to be.

Now, you can come up with all the impossible situations you want to explain this boy wanting to be a girl and that does not make God's standard any different. You can argue the impossible all you want and my answer cannot change.

 

Thank You

Mont...thank you for a sound and sane (and definitely Biblical) point of view on this issue. Bottom line???...Sin is and always will be sin and we as Christians are called to be faithful to our Lord and His truth even when it is not popular or convenient. We should love these people and tell them the truth. To tell them otherwise is neither loving OR truthful. Anymore now these days it is not considered "loving" or "politically correct" to be truthful and tell people their choices and their lifestyle is/are sinful. We will be held accountable for our testimony. However, our position is NEVER an excuse to be unkind or hateful to anyone for any reason. The example our Lord displayed most frequently (and I believe the Word of God bears this to be true) was compassion and care for the lost and (thank God) the saved as well. God is good but His TRUTH is part of His Goodness. Let us always seek to be the same as we walk in the Spirit. I, like yourself, have had close family and friends touched by this devilish lifestyle "choice". There can be deliverance but it is not an easy thing. Prayer is our refuge and our weapon.

Bro.Gregraying:

 

I was born with a physical limitation. (Not gender related)

I haven't seen anyone who says it's a sin to be born with a genetic flaw. (1) Since the fall of man, we ALL have genetic flaws. Some more apparent than others. There's only been one man to walk on this earth, since the fall, without flaw. (2) We are all born sinners.

Can you show me one verse of scripture that excuses my sinful acts, because of my limitation, in the eyes of God?

From the moment of conception, we all face challenges in this fleshly body. Some genetic defects are so severe that life (before/after birth) cannot be sustained beyond a very short period of time. From the moment of conception we must contend with challenges from our environment (before/after birth) that can have a negative impact on our bodies and our lives, as well.

We have a choice. Accept those challenges or look for excuses for sinful BEHAVIOR. Whether our own sinful actions or the sinful acts of others.

Looking at myself, I can find plenty of excuses in my own life. In addition to a physical limitation, I grew up in poverty. An excuse, also, used by many to justify sin, in their own lives and in the lives of others.

I believe...............
In the eyes of God, I have no excuses when I choose to sin.

In closing,
Quote: We rush to judgement without the facts. So sad. And so sinful.

Beams and motes.

Think about it. :flower:

 

I adopted a fragile x child, so I am well aware how truly the sin is in the flesh.

No one can give me a verse, however, saying it is a sin to correct a birth defect.

Mind you, what nobody seems to be hearing me say so I will say it again, that if a person is truly born xx or xy ONLY a sex change is definitely sin and needs to be confronted as such if they apply for church membership.

So my question stands: IF this child WAS NOT born JUST xy, how would it be a sin to correct the birth defect?

Our local medicos specialized in this malady for a while, and the church I was part of for a while ministered to them. The media would have it believed they were taking xy and making girls, or xx and making boys on a sinful whim.

The truth was most of them were NOT BORN xx or xy ONLY. OR they were, there was a problem, and sexual reassignment surgery had been done before the age of one. Many of the people were seeking to reverse it and be returned to what they were genetically.

I've learned a lot from my doctor friends. Basically, if your little 2-3 year old boy self identifies as a girl, or vice versa, better see a geneticist and an endocrinologist that specialize in children. You can avoid reaching puberty and your "son" develops female traits, or your "daughter" suddenly grows a beard. SOMETIMES that little "boy" is actually a girl with functioning ovaries, genetically, but the wrong exterior plumbing. And that "girl" may have testes instead of ovaries, no womb, and actually be a misshapen boy.

I would hope on a Baptist board like this we would be in agreement that transvestitism is indeed forbidden by scripture, and that it is indeed sinful that so many in our fallen culture believe gender is something we get to choose.

But I would also have expected that in dealing with a child, born again people would have reserved the judgement of "sinful, throw them out" until they had more information.

I hope next time you see someone on the street you find "icky" you will breathe a prayer for them--for their salvation if sin is causing the ick factor, and for help and compassion if they have a bona fide ailment. If the latter is the case, judgemental people can truly keep them from Christ.

 

Hello Iconoclast. Havent coresponded with you for a while

Hope you are doing well.

 

Gregory Perry, you took issue with this statement of mine....

As ambassadors of Christ we are to allow His life..in us.. to permeate everything we do.

Christ shared the good news of eternal life..the gosple.. to the whosoever wills, so, we are to do the same.

Christ healed people who were in need, so we are to be agents of healing as well. After all...He lives in us


If you have issues with those concepts, or dont feel that we should concerned with those things, I feel kind of sorry for you.

The scriptures are so clear.

God bless

 

In Agreement

Mont....I, for one, certainly know how you feel and agree with your very Biblical viewpoint on this matter. I just wanted you to know that you are not alone. We MUST live "by the Book"....even when it is not popular or convenient.

Bro.Greg:thumbsup:

 

Thank you for the kind and encouraging words.

 

OK...but....

AiC...If the scriptures are so clear (and I DO believe they are) please QUOTE them. Also....you don't have to "feel sorry" for me. I believe in a saving,healing God and hopefully He will be able to use me to accomplish His purposes on this earth while I am alive. I hope, as members of the body of Christ that that is true of all of us who name Him as our Lord and Saviour.

Bro.Gregraying:

 

Well, since you just said that you know about the healing scriptures, I am kinda wondering why you need ME to show them to you, but...since you asked......

Here are several...



Isaiah 41:10 - Fear thou not; for I [am] with thee: be not dismayed; for I [am] thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.

Jeremiah 17:14 - Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for thou [art] my praise.

1 Peter 2:24 - Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Isaiah 53:5 - But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Jeremiah 33:6 - Behold, I will bring it health and cure, and I will cure them, and will reveal unto them the abundance of peace and truth.

Psalms 103:2-4 - Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits: (Read More...)

James 5:14 - Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

James 5:15 - And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Matthew 10:1 - And when he had called unto [him] his twelve disciples, he gave them power [against] unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

James 5:16 - Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

3 John 1:2 - Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

Philippians 4:19 - But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

Matthew 10:8 - Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Proverbs 17:22 - A merry heart doeth good [like] a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.

Psalms 127:3 - Lo, children [are] an heritage of the LORD: [and] the fruit of the womb [is his] reward.

Deuteronomy 7:15 - And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them upon all [them] that hate thee.

Romans 5:3-4 - And not only [so], but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; (Read More...)

Hebrews 11:6 - But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Isaiah 54:17 - No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue [that] shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This [is] the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness [is] of me, saith the LORD.

Proverbs 16:24 - Pleasant words [are as] an honeycomb, sweet to the soul, and health to the bones.

Matthew 11:28 - Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Proverbs 4:20-22 - My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings. (Read More...)

James 4:7 - Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Isaiah 57:18 - I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.

Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 Corinthians 12:9 - And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

John 10:10 - The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly.

Luke 4:18 - The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Matthew 7:1-29 - Judge not, that ye be not judged. (Read More...)

Psalms 34:20 - He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.

Psalms 6:2 - Have mercy upon me, O LORD; for I [am] weak: O LORD, heal me; for my bones are vexed.

Deuteronomy 32:39 - See now that I, [even] I, [am] he, and [there is] no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither [is there any] that can deliver out of my hand.

Hebrews 13:8 - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Romans 12:2 - And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

 

Thank God For His Word!

AiC...I will say that the scriptures you quoted are excellent....because they are the Word of God and also because they show Christ's mighty work of grace, mercy, and yes...healing in our lives. It is ALL HIS work....not ANY of ours. The only verses on that list that even seem to imply such are the ones from Matthew chapter 10 where Christ personally imparted to his original disciples an apostolic gift for that period of time. These passed away (unless you subscribe to some of the far-reaching imaginations of some of our "charismatic" brethren). WE as individuals bear no "healing" powers. We can however, by godly Spirit-filled living be a source of edification for our brothers and sisters in Christ and the world around us. I hope that is what you mean. If it is then we can find some ground to agree on. In any case...excellent scriptures. I love the Word of God. As for why I asked you to post them....it wasn't for any other reason than for the benefit of ALL of us to see what GOD says about the matter. Just wanted to see "what ya had"!:applause:

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

Of couse, but sometimes He uses US as well, as a conduit or even the despenser of His healing grace.

I do not hold to the great errors of the Charismatic/Word of Faith style groups.

Yes, I agree, and during those times great healing can take place through Christ as He uses us as a conduit of His love, mercy and grace.

I believe we are on the same wavelenghth. :godisgood:

 

From the OP article, there's nothing to indicate that the child in question is suffering from a birth defect.

Further, the NBC news Dateline reporting on this states:

I've followed the links from the original article.
http://www.dennyburk.com/the-little-boy-who-wanted-to-be-a-girl/
http://insidedateline.nbcnews.com/_...merica-encounter-new-crossroads-with-medicine
http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/201...nder-kids-seeking-help-getting-treatment?lite

From the last one, there is a very "telling" statement.

Identical twins have the same DNA. Thus, they have the same X and Y factors.

Further from this link.

Following the links led to this. (There's much that I had to leave out along the way to this point that's well worth reading, IMO.)

Gender Diversity http://www.genderdiversity.org/

As I've said before, I have a physical limitation -- one that cannot be hidden by any medical or non medical means. I have suffered the slings and arrows of society's expectation of "normal" all my life. And still do. And, will continue to do so until our Lord calls me home.

Also, as I've said before, we provide a home for a mentally challenged sibling. Have done so for 30+ years. We care for a "child" who will never be mature enough to get a driver's license, for example.

You wrote:
So my question stands: IF this child WAS NOT born JUST xy, how would it be a sin to correct the birth defect?

IMO, it is a sin when the "correction" leads to sin.

God gave man the ability for doctors to repair club feet, holes in the heart, malformations of the face (birth or accident), and in some cases of the reproductive system, too.

There's a fine line in the sand here.

In a given situation it may be almost impossible to see without guidance from the Holy Spirit, for that unique situtation. In this thread, we are talking about behavior. If a child is born with some deviation from what mankind calls male and female, at what point does man impose his will to decide the gender? Thus, affect the behavior of that child?

When a child is born with functioning characteristics of either gender, is it God's will that man makes a "correction" to change the child to non functioning characteristics of the other gender? As far as I know, science hasn't progressed to the point of creating organs that can produce sperm and ova.

Is it a sin to abstain from reproductive activities when those acts cannot bring about conception? Again, the bottom line is that we are talking about behavior, in this thread. Is it a sin for man to use skills, given by God for good, to enable acts that are an abomination to God?

If there is a question that any action we take in our lives is wrong in the sight of God, shouldn't we abstain?

Mark 12: KJB
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Showing love and compassion for others does not override the first commandment, IMO. Anything that I do, however well intended, that leads someone around me into sin breaks the first commandment.

Standing at that fine line in the sand is the Holy Spirit. He will not lead us across it. If we cross it, it is by our will and not His.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you -- the Golden rule.
Sometimes we should do nothing (abstain). Except pray for God's compassion, mercy and guidance in their lives.

In closing, Nodak, may God richly bless you for providing a home for a child in need.

 

Oldtimer, sounds like we agree more than disagree.

I've stated all along it is, in my opinion, wrong to go with societies version of choosing your gender with sex change operations to accomplish it.

That doesn't change the fact many people are not born simply xx or xy, need medical intervention, and in those cases are not sinning.

My concern was that we rush to ASSUME all cases are sin rather than get the needed info and then proceed.

 

Amen according to 1 Cor 5