"Dear Friends" Does Capture The Greek Adequately.

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by TCGreek, Dec 28, 2007.

  1. TCGreek

    TCGreek
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    1. One of the issues I have with some of the newer versions is their rendering of the vocative agapetoi as "dear friends" (HCSB failed here).

    2. It is more true to the Greek to render agapetoi as "beloved," signifying God's love for those being addressed.
     
  2. Deacon

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    From the Holman's Christian Standard Version preface:

    The Goals of This Translation
    • to provide English-speaking people across the world with an accurate, readable Bible in contemporary English
    • to equip serious Bible students with an accurate translation for personal study, private devotions, and memorization
    • to give those who love God’s word a text that is easy to read, visually attractive on the page, and appealing when heard
    • to affirm the authority of the Scriptures as God’s inerrant word and to champion its absolutes against social or cultural agendas that would compromise its accuracy

    When was the last time you used the word "Beloved" outside of a church setting?

    Rob
     
  3. TCGreek

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    1. When agapetoi is understood as passive, how could "dear friends" be faithful to the Greek? The readers are Christians and therefore "beloved" has significance for them--they are loved by God.

    2. Last time I checked Scripture was meant to be read in the assembly (Col 4:16).
     
  4. Deacon

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    I agree, "Dear friends" does not have the same power as "Beloved".

    But it can be just as effective if read properly.

    Haven't you ever heard a modern preacher, the likes of Charles Stanley, intone "Deeeear frrriends....".

    Rob
     
    #4 Deacon, Dec 29, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 29, 2007
  5. John of Japan

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    "Loved ones" would work. It brings up over 17,300,000 hits with Google including an Aussie rock band. But "beloved" has 38,700,000 hits, including a Pulitzer Prize winning novel from 1986 and the movie made from it. I'd say "beloved" still resounds in the English language. But "dear friends"? Forget it!
     
    #5 John of Japan, Dec 29, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 29, 2007
  6. TCGreek

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    John,

    "Loved ones" is certainly an option, for it captures the endearment of the Greek word.
     
  7. TCGreek

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    To all,

    HCSB is coming out with its first update in 09. At that time, it will simply be called the CSB. General editor Dr. Blum is working on some articles to put in those scholarly journals, so that the CSB would be noticed. Good luck, I say. :thumbs:
     
  8. mcdirector

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    Are they dropping the Holman because Holman is too Baptist I wonder? Why did they use it to begin with?

    I had to laugh at Rob's rendition of Dr. Stanley, but it did make me think about the context of when I would use friends and when I would use beloved or loved ones. There is a division and it runs along secular lines in my mind generally. Beloved isn't used outside of church circles - it is rarely used in church circles.

    While I don't know Greek, dear friends certainly does not encompass the passion I think was meant.

    Maybe beloved isn't used outside of church circles - if it is taken out of the Bible, it won't even be used there. I do think it will be our loss if it is a lost word. John, the very loved disciple doesn't have quite the same ring to it.
     
  9. TCGreek

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    MCD,

    I like your laywoman's approach. :thumbs:

    1. Yeah, Holman rings too much of Baptist, although only 50% of the translators are Baptist. Hopely they can get beyond the "Baptist Bible" label.

    2. Here's another thing: the general editor of HCSB is not even Baptist---he's Presbyterian, Dr. Edwin Blum.

    3. You are correct about John, the Beloved Disciple.

    4. "Beloved" is passive in the Greek and expresses the concept that the readers were loved of God. "Dear friends" does not capture that at all.

    5. Besides, the Scripture was meant to be read in church and not until the Holy Spirit convicts are we able to appreciate what we see in Scripture (1 Cor 2:9-14).

    6. In the meantime cling to your NASB. :thumbs:
     
  10. TCGreek

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    1. Here's the problem with the HCSB rendering agapetoi as "dear friends": they're not that consistent.

    1 Cor 4:17: "This is why I have sent to you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord."

    Why not render it "my dear friend," since it's the same Greek term?

    2. But in Phil 2:13 and other places the HCSB renders agapetoi as "dear friends."

    3. ESV: "That is why I sent you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord."

    4. The HCSB and the ESV are considered rivals.
     
    #10 TCGreek, Jan 3, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2008
  11. DHK

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    TC,
    Your pensive meditations reflect your sentiments and possible endearment of your "beloved" KJV.
     
  12. TCGreek

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    DHK,

    I give honor where honor is due, even if it is found in the "Beloved" KJV, which happens to get agapetoi correct. :thumbs:
     
  13. TCGreek

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    1. The HCSB is a fine translation, but it too has its shortcomings, esp. on agapetoi, "beloved." Here's another one I found:

    Phil 4:1: "my dearly loved brothers."

    2. But earlier in 2:13, HCSB renders an identical phrase, "my dear friends." I see that agapetoi is giving them serious problems.
     
  14. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    GE
    You have struck the tone for the orchestra to tune in to! The English of the KJV ever since its first publication has 'resounded' in each and every 'translation from the original languages' into all languages the Bible has been translated into - and that's about every language! We received the first Afrikaans Bible in 1933, 'translated from the original languages' by a committee not one of whom was as conversant with the original languages as with The English of the King James. It is an absulute impossibility the KJV all the time did not 'resound' in everyone's mind while struggling to reach a good Afrikaans rendering. And so was it with every language the Bible has been translated in - even with the first translations that followed on the KJV. It is not only historically and liguistically provable - it is sheer common sense.

    So even today - as you have given a good example of - the 'old' English of the KJV still reigns supreme.

    Modern translators --- I dont't think high of their ethics, to be quite frank. They have ulterior motives and it is visible in their product.
     
  15. John of Japan

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    The KJV does have an influence in the Japanese Bibles, since the Motoyaku ("Original Translation"), the first complete Japanese Bible, was translated from it. However, the influence must remain small since Japanese and English are so hugely different in grammar and syntax.
    This is quite a blanket condemnation! I may be included in that since I am involved in translating a new Japanese NT into modern Japanese from the TR. How broad exactly do you intend your condemnation to be?

    I know personally one of the NKJV editors, and he is a godly, good man. I have no doubt that his motives for his participation in the project were completely pure.
     
  16. EdSutton

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    Unfortunately, these are nothing but opinions, at best, "to be quite frank".

    And out of curiosity, what are these supposed "ulterior motives" of "modern translators"?

    I am a long-time close personal friend (39 years and counting, as we were college roommates) of the Dean of Students, and a teacher of the New Tribes Bible Institute, which prepares and trains students for the purpose of ministering to "language groups" that do not have the written Scriptures in their own language, and translate the Scriptures into the 'native' language, and their modern day lingo, at that. So I do have a bit of contact with that particular institution.

    I have also been privileged, in the past, to meet some associated with the Wycliffe Bible Translators, which group is translators of the Scriptures into 'native' languages, likewise, as those languages are spoken today.

    John of Japan is one on the Baptist Board, who is involved with translating the Scriptures into the Japanese language, where he ministers, and that into the 'modern Japanese language'.

    Nigel on the Baptist Board is currently involved with a modern translation of the texts that supposedly lie behind the KJV into modern, contemporary English, with what is known as the Trinity Bible.

    Each and every one of these, along with some others, such as the late Dr. Arthur Farstad with the NKJV and also the original chief editor fo the HCSB, whom Dr. Edward Blum succeeded, after the death of Dr. Farstad, plus Dr. Kenneth Barker, with the NIV, to name three general Editors (and just to name a few of whom I have some limited knowledge), have all expressly stated a desire to translate the Scriptures into the 'common' language (or vernacular) of the people.

    I see that as consistent with the intents and desires of many great historical luminaries of Christianity, such as Jerome, Martin Luther, Desiderius Erasmus, John Wycliffe, John Rogers, Theodore Beza, and William Tyndale, to name just a few.

    If these all had (or this desire is) the supposed "ulterior motives", then let us praise God for that, and pray for more with such motives!

    If, by contrast, you happen to refer to the fact that these individuals are or may be paid for their work (or in the case of the HCSB, which is "owned" by Broadman/Holman which is an entity of the SBC, "hired' these individuals to do the translation), what of it?

    FTR, the 'SBC' commissioned the HCSB, in the first place, to avoid paying the huge sums of royalties to other entities (and actually wound up with a pretty good version in the process, IMO, although I do not personally own one, yet) for the use of another version of Scripture in the hundreds of thousands of pieces of literature they produce for Southern Baptist Churches (although anyone can and do purchase the literature), and that, coupled with some concerns about some things found in the NIV, and TNIV, led to the HCSB.

    Sorry, I simply don't see any problem, here. "The laborer is worthy of his hire." Is not a translator a "laborer", and engaged in a worthy (and completely honorable) task, at that?

    I guess I just believe that he and/or she is very honorably engaged in this task!

    Let me close this post, by saying that I agree with what John of Japan has written above. Your 'condemnation' here, is both way too broad, and unwarranted, as well, IMO.

    Ed
     
    #16 EdSutton, Jan 5, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2008

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